Newcomer Cons to getting Argentine citizenship for Americans?

[BaltRich]

A question for any Americans out there who have gotten Argentine citizenship, have you encountered any cons with the Argentine citizenship? Especially if you're planning to go back and live in the US later.

Would you just try for residency if you could do it again, or do you think citizenship is better?

 

[TechNow]

I'm going for citizenship. I already have residency. From what I understand from the US Embassy, you don't lose your US citizenship, so there seems to be no downside. There are a lot of upsides:

1. You can invest in land and border areas here in Argentina without prior government approval.
2. You can travel to Brazil, Cuba, and other countries that either require a US citizen to have a visa or charge a reciprocal fee to US citizens or are otherwise off limits for US citizens due to political reasons.
3. You can bank and invest outside of the United States without the SEC watching over you and prohibiting what you invest in. Many banks around the world won't open accounts for US citizens and almost every investment fund outside the US won't accept US investors for fear of running afoul of draconian US investor protection laws (which is getting worse).
4. Finally, it is better not to depend on a single government. I'd rather have the protection of two governments wherever I go.

My wife is also looking into what needs to be done so I can get an Italian passport also. I didn't know this, but it looks like some European countries will grant citizenship through marriage, so those of us who are married to Argentines who have European citizenship can also do the paperwork necessary to apply for European Union citizenship after being married for a certain number of years.

 

[SargentAse]

One downside is if you ever have a problem with the Argentine authorities, you would not be able to call upon the US Embassy for assistance.

 

[MDirtBoy]

One downside is if you ever have a problem with the Argentine authorities, you would not be able to call upon the US Embassy for assistance.

How would that be true? He isn't renouncing his US citizenship. Simply adding a second. As a US citizen, he would be entitled to all protections and benfefits thereoff, yes?

 

[GraseBes]

How would that be true? He isn't renouncing his US citizenship. Simply adding a second. As a US citizen, he would be entitled to all protections and benfefits thereoff, yes?

Under diplomatic protocol the US Embassy would be powerless to intervene in a situation where the Argentine authorities were pursuing a case against an Argentine Citizen, regardless of dual nationality.

Of couse I am aware that the US authorities love to interfere in the internal affairs of other countries, but its simply not allowed.

 

[TechNow]

Want to find out what US consular assistance is worth? Download the series "Locked Up Abroad". They come to visit once a month. They give you a list of lawyers. They will bring you food or money to the jail that your family sends to the consulate.

The most important thing if you are ever found in a criminal proceeding here in Argentina is to have the means to hire your own private defender and some money to grease the wheels of justice (so I'm told).

My wife has a friend whose father is a criminal defender and the first thing he tells people to do when they come to see him is to bring the escritura to their property so he can see how much cash is available, because if you want to stay out of jail you are going to need it.

The US government is going to use up zero political capital trying to get a US citizen out of jail in a foreign country. If you want them to move for you, you'd better have political connections. You need a congressman or senator or someone in elected office on your side pressuring the state department to work for you.

So, I see way more upside to having dual citizenship, especially since I never plan on getting in trouble with the authorities.

 

[earlyretirement]

Unless you renounced your citizenship (which I'd NEVER advise any American to do unless you are pulling in Eduardo Saverin type of $$$$), then you still have to file a US tax return each year and also you still have to declare any bank account or investment account abroad that you have over $10,000 in. Yes? (Form TD F90 and Form TD 8938 from the IRS).

On the plus side, you can still exempt $95,200 for yourself in 2012 and you can make your wife an employee as well and exempt another $95,200 for a total of $190,400 a year in the USA from IRS taxes. So as long as you're not in the USA more than 30 days a year you don't have to pay taxes on that income made outside of the USA. I'd assume you are already doing that.

However, from what I've researched, you still have to file TD F90 and Form TD 8938 if you have lots of bank or investment accounts abroad. And honestly, that is what triggers an audit if you have many offshore bank or investment accounts over $10,000. (Take it from me as I've gotten audited 3 times out of the past 6 years). It's a major pain and I've worked to close down most of my offshore investment accounts because of this. Fortunately I've always declared all of them outside of the USA so I avoided problems. I stopped getting audited once I closed down most of my offshore accounts. I still have a few and fill out the TD F90 form but not nearly the amount I had before. I honestly believe those trigger audits.

And you do NOT want to get caught not declaring these offshore accounts. These days there is no such thing as "offshore account" anymore. Almost all of these countries share information with the US government now.

So that's something to think about. I also thought about getting citizenship in Argentina but never went through with it. It's true that foreign countries do not want to open new accounts for Americans. But fortunately I already have banking relationships outside of the USA so don't have to worry about that. None of them shut my account because I'm American. It's just that most aren't opening up new bank accounts for Americans due to reporting hassles.

Plus, I still have to declare all the accounts outside of the USA. And I hear that soon the IRS will start making Americans declare real estate they own outside of the USA. I think it will take a few years for that but that will really bite when that happens. And once they announce that...you're going to have a lot of Americans scrambling to sell real estate offshore.

While I think E.E. has a good list of valid reasons. Personally I just didn't feel like they were a big enough incentive to me to hassle with it. That could change in the future but I can accomplish everything I want on my US passport. Staying on the right hand of the law really prevents a ton of problems. And when I want to go to Cuba or Brazil or any other country it's still possible. More hassles and paperwork but still possible.

 

[TechNow]

Unless you renounced your citizenship (which I'd NEVER advise any American to do unless you are pulling in Eduardo Saverin type of $$$$), then you still have to file a US tax return each year and also you still have to declare any bank account or investment account abroad that you have over $10,000 in. Yes? (Form TD F90 and Form TD 8938 from the IRS).

On the plus side, you can still exempt $95,200 for yourself in 2012 and you can make your wife an employee as well and exempt another $95,200 for a total of $190,400 a year in the USA from IRS taxes. So as long as you're not in the USA more than 30 days a year you don't have to pay taxes on that income made outside of the USA. I'd assume you are already doing that.

However, from what I've researched, you still have to file TD F90 and Form TD 8938 if you have lots of bank or investment accounts abroad. And honestly, that is what triggers an audit if you have many offshore bank or investment accounts over $10,000. (Take it from me as I've gotten audited 3 times out of the past 6 years). It's a major pain and I've worked to close down most of my offshore investment accounts because of this. Fortunately I've always declared all of them outside of the USA so I avoided problems. I stopped getting audited once I closed down most of my offshore accounts. I still have a few and fill out the TD F90 form but not nearly the amount I had before. I honestly believe those trigger audits.

And you do NOT want to get caught not declaring these offshore accounts. These days there is no such thing as "offshore account" anymore. Almost all of these countries share information with the US government now.

So that's something to think about. I also thought about getting citizenship in Argentina but never went through with it. It's true that foreign countries do not want to open new accounts for Americans. But fortunately I already have banking relationships outside of the USA so don't have to worry about that. None of them shut my account because I'm American. It's just that most aren't opening up new bank accounts for Americans due to reporting hassles.

Plus, I still have to declare all the accounts outside of the USA. And I hear that soon the IRS will start making Americans declare real estate they own outside of the USA. I think it will take a few years for that but that will really bite when that happens. And once they announce that...you're going to have a lot of Americans scrambling to sell real estate offshore.

While I think E.E. has a good list of valid reasons. Personally I just didn't feel like they were a big enough incentive to me to hassle with it. That could change in the future but I can accomplish everything I want on my US passport. Staying on the right hand of the law really prevents a ton of problems. And when I want to go to Cuba or Brazil or any other country it's still possible. More hassles and paperwork but still possible.

Citizenship has nothing to do with taxes. If you are a US citizen, you have to pay taxes on your worldwide income, same as Argentina citizens.

For American expats living abroad in Argentina, they should be paying ZERO taxes in the USA. Income tax rates in Argentina are 35%, which is above the rate in the USA. So you can take a foreign tax credit on your USA return for all Argentina taxes paid and pay nothing to the United States.

What you are talking about here is called the physical presence test. If you are a resident in Argentina and pay income tax in Argentina, you get this same exclusion under the "bonafide resident test" and you can spend up to 3-4 months in the USA each year if you want. The first year or two I was filing taxes as an expat, I was always counting my days in the USA until I started to file the exclusion under the bonafide resident test, which lets you stay a lot more time in the USA when needed.

It is not really a big hassle, especially if you get a lawyer to help you with it. I think a second passport is personal sovereignty issue, more than anything. I'll confess, I am a libertarian. I like knowing the fact that once I get my Argentine citizenship, no single government can track or prohibit my travel.

All the Argentines I know who have a second passport tell me they wouldn't trade that for anything. It is an insurance policy against something going wrong in your home country. Now, I know the USA is a long way from having the kinds of problems Argentina has, but you never know what can happen in the future. The biggest reason I want a second passport is for the unknowns in life. Maybe my Argentine citizenship will come in handy one day and get me out of a bind, maybe not. But it is nice to know that it will be there just in case.

 

[AdelinaMistik]

I can think of one big downside. In Argentina, you are obligated to vote. The voting process in Argentina, ( like many other systems) is very ´third world¨. Depending where you live and depending what election, this process may take 3, 4 hours. It is a nightmare. Having a USA passport is enough, in my opinion. If you do not plan to purchase land, or visit Cuba, the Argentine passport has little to no use.

 

[AntoniDes]

I can think of one big downside. In Argentina, you are obligated to vote. The voting process in Argentina, ( like many other systems) is very ´third world¨. Depending where you live and depending what election, this process may take 3, 4 hours. It is a nightmare. Having a USA passport is enough, in my opinion. If you do not plan to purchase land, or visit Cuba, the Argentine passport has little to no use.

I never encountered this supposed problem. Voting was always straightforward.
Argentines don't require a visa for Russia either. Turkey is also visa-free for Argentina.
It is always good to two nationalities, you never know what will happen with this crazy World.

 

[WillyNext]

I can think of one big downside. In Argentina, you are obligated to vote. The voting process in Argentina, ( like many other systems) is very ´third world¨. Depending where you live and depending what election, this process may take 3, 4 hours. It is a nightmare. Having a USA passport is enough, in my opinion. If you do not plan to purchase land, or visit Cuba, the Argentine passport has little to no use.

I would agree, Argentinian citizen would be pretty very far down the list of countries I would want citizenship from, somewhat ahead of North Korea and Cuba but far down the list. I don't think the ability to evade taxes as mentioned in a earlier post is a selling point and is an indicator of other problems in Argentina. I personally don't see the need for a second passport unless the only one you have is from someplace like Argentina.

 

[TechNow]

I would agree, Argentinian citizen would be pretty very far down the list of countries I would want citizenship from, somewhat ahead of North Korea and Cuba but far down the list. I don't think the ability to evade taxes as mentioned in a earlier post is a selling point and is an indicator of other problems in Argentina. I personally don't see the need for a second passport unless the only one you have is from someplace like Argentina.

That's fine. There are a lot of us who feel differently. I have lived here for 8 years now, I love this country, my wife is Argentine, I own land in a border area, I have quite a few other investments here, and I don't like the hostile attitude here towards foreigners (especially northerners). So, it only makes sense to go the extra step and get citizenship.

I agree, if you are not planning on being here for the long term and only plan to stay here 1 or 2 years and then move on, you're not going to invest here, you don't plan on having a family here, then it doesn't make sense to be a citizen of Argentina.

But for those of us who have a real connection with this country and who plan on being here for the long term, it makes sense for many different reasons.

 

[earlyretirement]

That's fine. There are a lot of us who feel differently. I have lived here for 8 years now, I love this country, my wife is Argentine, I own land in a border area, I have quite a few other investments here, and I don't like the hostile attitude here towards foreigners (especially northerners). So, it only makes sense to go the extra step and get citizenship.

I agree, if you are not planning on being here for the long term and only plan to stay here 1 or 2 years and then move on, you're not going to invest here, you don't plan on having a family here, then it doesn't make sense to be a citizen of Argentina.

But for those of us who have a real connection with this country and who plan on being here for the long term, it makes sense for many different reasons.

Definitely in El Expatriado's case it makes sense to get the citizenship. He risks little to nothing to get it and with Argentina's corrupt, inefficient, ineffective regime who knows what could come down the road for those that aren't Citizens.

But the honest truth is VERY few expats will be in the situation like El Expatriado. The mere fact that you have to worry about a change in law that would affect non Citizens is itself a clear sign of how horrible the government is in Argentina.

Most expats don't buy down in the border areas. Most of the wealthy locals in Argentina already have a second passport from somewhere in Europe and consider their Argentina passport almost worthless.

I agree if you have significant assets in Argentina then it makes sense but for the vast majority reading this board you would never even want to think about getting citizenship in Argentina. Most American expats that have kids will most likely move back to the USA in the long run to raise their kids.

I know many American expats that had kids and just about every single one of them has already left Argentina or plans to soon to raise their kids in the USA where the quality of life, safety, education is much much better than Argentina.

 

[TechNow]

Definitely in El Expatriado's case it makes sense to get the citizenship. He risks little to nothing to get it and with Argentina's corrupt, inefficient, ineffective regime who knows what could come down the road for those that aren't Citizens.

But the honest truth is VERY few expats will be in the situation like El Expatriado. The mere fact that you have to worry about a change in law that would affect non Citizens is itself a clear sign of how horrible the government is in Argentina.

Most expats don't buy down in the border areas. Most of the wealthy locals in Argentina already have a second passport from somewhere in Europe and consider their Argentina passport almost worthless.

I agree if you have significant assets in Argentina then it makes sense but for the vast majority reading this board you would never even want to think about getting citizenship in Argentina. Most American expats that have kids will most likely move back to the USA in the long run to raise their kids.

I know many American expats that had kids and just about every single one of them has already left Argentina or plans to soon to raise their kids in the USA where the quality of life, safety, education is much much better than Argentina.

This really depends on your individual circumstances. My wife and I have a great quality of life here. There are plenty of neighborhoods that are safe and there are excellent private schools, better even than private schools in the US. You can send your children to a private international school here and they will finish speaking 3-4 languages and with a level of understanding of the world that most US kids will not achieve. The US is a very introverted country, while Argentina is a very outward looking country -- much more in tune with what is happening globally.

We aren't planning on having kids yet, but when we do, we are not worried about the quality of life they will have here.

 

[earlyretirement]

This really depends on your individual circumstances. My wife and I have a great quality of life here. There are plenty of neighborhoods that are safe and there are excellent private schools, better even than private schools in the US. You can send your children to a private international school here and they will finish speaking 3-4 languages and with a level of understanding of the world that most US kids will not achieve. The US is a very introverted country, while Argentina is a very outward looking country -- much more in tune with what is happening globally.

We aren't planning on having kids yet, but when we do, we are not worried about the quality of life they will have here.

Definitely you can have a great quality of life in Argentina. I won't argue with you there. I used to think the same way you did until I had kids. Then your outlook starts to change.

There are a lot of things wrong with the USA but there are more things right with it. And it's so darn efficient here and everything works great.

But you're right....there are certain things that you will miss. Like having a full time housekeeper/maid, a chef that cooks, someone that does your laundry full-time, etc. Even if you have a lot of $$$ in the USA very rarely will you have so much full-time help like this like in Buenos Aires where it's very normal. LOL.

 

[Gerarder]

How can be wrong having also the Argentine citizenships? You get rights and have almost no obligations. Besides -and it is independently of you like the govt or not, whether the quality of life is good or not, etc - Argentina, unlike most first-World countries, is rarely in the political spotlight. It is a great citizenship to travel around the World! Everyone talks to you because of football, but never because of the killing of a wedding party by a drone or such similar atrocity.

 

[earlyretirement]

I don't think anyone is saying there is anything wrong with having Argentine dual citizenship. Only arguing there aren't too many positives unless you are in E.E.'s position of owning many assets in the country.

But no, I agree there aren't too many negatives.