Who are the future Expats in Buenos Aires?

[steveinbsas]

Recently there was a huge increase in the income requirement for the visa rentista and the dollar amount for the investor visa was also increased. The new decreto may put an end to perma-tourism and inflation and crime are greater concerns than ever. Retirees who don't have to have a specified level of income to qualify for the pensionado visa are still unlikely to find long term rentals sin la garantia. Even if they buy an apartment to live in, the monthly fees have been increasing at an alarming rate.

Though there have been a few recent posts here on the forum from businesses looking for individuals to work, some only want those who already have a DNI. I'm not sure if it is legal to hire a foreigner with a DNI to take any job that is offered without the employer being registered with migraciones, but even if it's possible to bypass migraciones there don't seem to be very many jobs that include pay and benefits attractive to most foreigners form North America, Australia, and Europe (unless on the job fruit twice a week is a major incentive).

I'm sure there will continue to be individuals (some with families) who are transferred to BA for work and some foreigners who will come as tourists for six months or less, but I wonder if the future "year round" population of expats in BA is going to shrink, perhaps significantly, in the future. I hope we will hear from those who are still considering "moving" here as well as those who have serious doubts regarding plans they may have been making for a number of months...if not years. Given recent events and trends, this has become a tougher decision to make than ever.

"The beginning of wisdom is the ability to call things by their proper name." Confucius
"Tell the truth to everyone whenever you can." John Lennon

 

[earlyretirement]

This is a good topic. I totally agree with it. Really the days of the "bohemian" ex-pats moving here in droves is pretty much over. From my time living here, I've mostly avoided expats and had more interest in spending time with locals.

In the past, most ex-pats were people that lost jobs in the USA/Europe or abroad and Buenos Aires was a super cheap place to lay low for a while. Although some used learning Spanish as an excuse most that I've seen haven't bothered to learn Spanish. Many I'd hear just partied here or goof around.

Then you have another group that is assigned here with large companies, multi-national institutions, non-profit agencies where they get paid in dollars/euros. Also, you have the expat that can work over the internet/phone and make dollars/euros.

A very very very small percentage of Ex-Pats that come here to start a business are successful. I can probably count on one hand the # of Ex Pats that came to Argentina and really were successful. This is a terribly difficult country to make money in. It's inefficient, taxes are terribly high, tons of red tape, government is corrupt, a clear lack of separation of branches of government here, a non-functional banking system, yadda yadda yadda.

Most expats will go back to their home countries having blown much of their savings with not too many great job prospects.

Argentina is a great place for those with lots of money and savings, those that have pensions or social security payments in dollars/euros, etc. So for those people it's ok but the cost of living has really skyrocketed over the past few years.

Job prospects are severely limited for ex-pats and even if they can get a job they won't make a lot of money here. You have a very high educated base of young people that speak English and many of them studied abroad and they don't make a lot of money so they aren't going to pay some Ex Pat a lot.

I think this place is ideal if you have tons of savings, bought a place with cash and only have your expenses, utilities, etc. Utilities are still dirt cheap here compared to the USA/Europe. But things like groceries are not cheap here (and the quality of food is pretty poor), restaurants aren't that cheap. Healthcare insurance used to be cheap but with the inflation it's more expensive now.
Still much cheaper than the USA.

But even those with tons of savings it's more difficult because banks are paying basically almost nothing now. When I moved here banks were paying as high as 5% interest in high interest savings accounts. So if you had $1 million you were making $50,000 just off the interest. Now you're lucky if you get $15,000. The world is a different place.

Me personally I think if you have significant savings.....other first world countries can offer a much better quality of life. For many expats, BA has lust a bit of it's luster as it's more expensive.

For me it doesn't come down to finances at all. I'm going to move out of Argentina next year but it has nothing to do with finances or cost of living. It just comes down to plain old quality of life issues. It will be nice not standing in line 1 hour at the grocery store or the post office. Nice seeing people actually not cutting over 3 lanes to turn and obeying basic traffic laws. It will be nice to not see cars/buses with thick black soot blowing out of the exhaust. Nice not to have some protesters blocking a major street all because some politician bought them a sandwich and a coke to come and protest for their cause. Oh, and not having 25%-30% inflation a year to worry about won't be too bad either.

But I admit...I'll rally miss the full time maid and cook! That has been a great perk all these years.

 

[Radd]

I think that most of South America is turning worse for expats. I like to spend some time in Buenos Aires every winter, but I no longer consider Argentina as a place for permanent residency or business. The only business friendly country in South America is Chile. I can also get a higher quality of life in Spain where property prices are going down, roads are first world quality and the weather is just as good as in Argentina.

 

[earlyretirement]

I think that most of South America is turning worse for expats. I like to spend some time in Buenos Aires every winter, but I no longer consider Argentina as a place for permanent residency or business. The only business friendly country in South America is Chile. I can also get a higher quality of life in Spain where property prices are going down, roads are first world quality and the weather is just as good as in Argentina.

I agree. Really I think that more of the Ex Pat base in Buenos Aires will be people that are retiring and have pensions or social security payments. Because the truth of the matter is that many of these people just can't afford to live in the USA anymore. BA is still cheaper with many aspects than the USA including healthcare and medications.

But I think previously Expats found part of the "charm" of Buenos Aires was the very low cost of living. Really it's not that cheap anymore. Rental prices have really gone up over the years and if you really want to buy a great place in Recoleta or Palermo it's more expensive per sq. meter than most places in the USA, with the exception of some obvious cities like Manhattan.

I own a few 2 bedroom properties that are $250,000 US and for that you can buy a big house in many cities in the USA now. Heck even 1 bedroom places can be as much as $170,000 US which again you can buy a house in the USA in many cities for.

Brazil is becoming a powerhouse and more expensive, especially with the very weak dollar and poor exchange rate. Chile has a great business environment...but let's be honest.... well it's Chile... boring for my tastes.

Uruguay has a GREAT banking system and legal system and the health care system is great as well. But again it's boring. Every place has it's negatives. For me, Buenos Aires is still the absolute best city in South America to live for great quality of life, relatively safe, etc. But when it comes down to it and as Rad mentioned...you can have a much higher quality of life in first world countries vs. Argentina.

 

[roland9]

Thank you all for the great perspectives on the future here in Argentina for ex-pats.

Is it anyone's opinion that this is a phase as the great wheel of the world economy turns and that in 5-10 years we may find ourselves back in an accommodative city?

Or is Buenos Aires going to seal up and cauterize itself from the inflow of bohemian ex-pats? (of which I count myself one)

I ask this because I am starting to settle down here and having to start to think seriously about life here. This foreboding makes me sit uneasy; my nightmare would be to be trapped here financially. Also I am at the fresh end of the career ladder, and when applying back in Europe for work will find it difficult to explain why I was so unambitious in wanting to earn pesos in a professional and economic backwater? (How do you explain that to someone who has lived in London for their whole life without sounding like a work-shy hippy!?)

I do not know any other ex-pat of my age (26) who is here now (permanently) without family money or a job with an international company.

Bollocks, I forgot where I was going with this and I have to go to dinner...

 

[earlyretirement]

Thank you all for the great perspectives on the future here in Argentina for ex-pats.

Is it anyone's opinion that this is a phase as the great wheel of the world economy turns and that in 5-10 years we may find ourselves back in an accommodative city?

Or is Buenos Aires going to seal up and cauterize itself from the inflow of bohemian ex-pats? (of which I count myself one)

I ask this because I am starting to settle down here and having to start to think seriously about life here. This foreboding makes me sit uneasy; my nightmare would be to be trapped here financially. Also I am at the fresh end of the career ladder, and when applying back in Europe for work will find it difficult to explain why I was so unambitious in wanting to earn pesos in a professional and economic backwater? (How do you explain that to someone who has lived in London for their whole life without sounding like a work-shy hippy!?)

I do not know any other ex-pat of my age (26) who is here now (permanently) without family money or a job with an international company.

Bollocks, I forgot where I was going with this and I have to go to dinner...

RRP,

My best advice to you is really have a good "game plan" or "life plan". Make a 1, 2, 5 and 10 year goal of where you want to be and what you see with your life. Because time flies by.

You are relatively young now at 26. But say you are here 5 years and you are 31 and you really don't make any significant income here. You don't build up any savings or assets, plus you aren't paying into any retirement program.

So you have to ask yourself, what's the end game? I'm not saying money is the most important thing in life. It's clearly not. But from my experience...it sure does make life easier, funner and more enjoyable. Plus, you are only 26 now but what about when you are 36 and you want a family. It's not so easy raising a family being a "bohemian character".

Those are the types of things you need to ask yourself. And as you correctly mentioned, prospective employers when you move back to Europe will ask what you did, what experience did you have, what did you learn? Definitely I'd recommend taking this opportunity to get totally fluent but I know others from London that did and it didn't mean too much back home in London.

That's probably the best advice I can give you is to really make a life plan with various stage points.

I don't think Buenos Aires will be a "cheap" destination in the near future. I'm not saying it's expensive because compared to other large metropolitan cities around the world it's one of the cheapest still. However, in other large metropolitan cities around the world it's relatively easy to find a job and make a decent wage. I don't find that to be the case for Expats in Buenos Aires. Most that I've heard of really struggle to make money and the money they do make they are spending it all to live so they aren't building up any savings of any kind which would be scary to me. I've always been the type that always like to have an egg in my nest.

I still very much enjoy Buenos Aires but now with kids, I don't really find the quality of life that great raising kids compared to first world countries....

 

[Lucia]

Unless you're earning a steady income in foreign currency, it's becoming more and more of a struggle to settle down here. I am 29, will soon be finishing graduate school, and need to start thinking methodically about practical and financial concerns. I love many things about Argentina, but being able to find high-paying work in the US, Europe, or Asia makes it difficult to justify a salary in pesos that barely covers living expenses (much less allows us to travel or build up our savings.) And even though I am lucky enough to already have significant savings, I'd be a chump to squander them away until I'm so broke I have to go home anyway. My partner is Argentine, but we agree it would be much wiser to live/work in Europe and leave BA for annual summer vacations. My guess is that other foreigners who want to be strategic about their long-term plans might end up making a similar choice.

 

[earlyretirement]

Unless you're earning a steady income in foreign currency, it's becoming more and more of a struggle to settle down here. I am 29, will soon be finishing graduate school, and need to start thinking methodically about practical and financial concerns. I love many things about Argentina, but being able to find high-paying work in the US, Europe, or Asia makes it difficult to justify a salary in pesos that barely covers living expenses (much less allows us to travel or build up our savings.) And even though I am lucky enough to already have significant savings, I'd be a chump to squander them away until I'm so broke I have to go home anyway. My partner is Argentine, but we agree it would be much wiser to live/work in Europe and leave BA for annual summer vacations. My guess is that other foreigners who want to be strategic about their long-term plans might end up making a similar choice.

This is such a good and accurate post and so true. I also make dollars here so it's not bad compared to those that make peso salaries. Really, if you are only making a peso salary here it's almost impossible to really get ahead, plan to save and buy for a house (real estate is expensive here in good areas), provide a great life for your family including vacations, top shelf medical insurance, etc.

Even those that I know with significant savings are burning through it much quicker here. So it all just comes down to if you are younger, thinking about your future and thinking about your "end game". You always have to ask yourself what the end game is.

Life is expensive and getting more expensive every year with inflation (in any country). So the question you have to ask yourself is do you really want to wake up when you are 35, 45, 55 with not much savings heading into retirement?

And even if you do earn dollars/Euros/Sterling and live here it just comes down to quality of life issues. You have to look at the risk/reward ratio of living here.

I'm sure I'll always be connected to Argentina since my kids were born here and my in-laws live in Buenos Aires. I'll probably come down a few times a year and own places I can stay in free.

But to me it's all about quality of life issues. All things being equal I've determined that it's a much higher quality of life in the USA vs. Argentina so I'll move out soon. I still really love Argentina and I'm sure always will.

I'm not one of those people that say "Buenos Aires is dangerous". Because I don't think it is. I do say crime is increasing here but I never find it dangerous. But it's not accurate to say anymore that BA has crime just like any other major city around the world. If you compare "apples to apples" and high end areas of major cities...you don't have the amount of crime that you have in BA. Fortunately it's mostly petty crime and not violent crimes.

But I can tell you as an American that likes to travel...I've been to every single state in the USA and I don't think it's accurate or safe to say any of these cities in comparable nice areas like Recoleta or Palermo has the amount of crime that you have here.

 

[Liam]

.... Is life getting "harder" in Argentina? Well that depends on who you ask and what you compare it to. For expats who are constantly comparing it to the US and Europe, Argentina may always be a failure.

I would say sure life has gotten momentarily harder in Argentina due to the boom and bust nature of the economy here, but I can think of dozens of countries that are far worse than Argentina, and millions of people who would literally sell their children to live and work in Buenos Aires on a peso salary.

Someone mentioned the Chinese that move here as working long, hard hours. They do it because to them Argentina isn't a disappoint or failure but an opportunity.

All this to say, that every now and then it doesn't hurt to remember as expats (most of whom are from the US and Europe) that no matter what our situation is in Argentina, we are some of the luckiest people in the world. And that's a fact.

 

[steveinbsas]

.... Is life getting "harder" in Argentina? Well that depends on who you ask and what you compare it to. For expats who are constantly comparing it to the US and Europe, Argentina may always be a failure.

I would say sure life has gotten momentarily harder in Argentina due to the boom and bust nature of the economy here, but I can think of dozens of countries that are far worse than Argentina, and millions of people who would literally sell their children to live and work in Buenos Aires on a peso salary.

Someone mentioned the Chinese that move here as working long, hard hours. They do it because to them Argentina isn't a disappoint or failure but an opportunity.

All this to say, that every now and then it doesn't hurt to remember as expats (most of whom are from the US and Europe) that no matter what our situation is in Argentina, we are some of the luckiest people in the world. And that's a fact.

It isn't momentarily harder to qualify for a resident visa to live here as an expat. It is far more difficult income wise to qualify for the visa rentista. When I started the thread I specifically included North America, Europe, and Australia to make a distinction between expats from these regions as compared to immigrants from countries like China. There probably aren't many Chinese coming here and applying for the visa rentista and they certainly aren't active on this site. They probably aren't selling their children to get here, either.

It is completely natural for expats from Europe and North America to compare life here with their home countries. If life wasn't better for me in Argentina I simply would not stay, but if I wanted to move here from the US now (instead of 2006) I would not be able to qualify for a resident visa and would not be a BAEXPAT today. I consider myself lucky I received permanent residency before the income requirement for the visa rentista tripled.

I also consider myself lucky to be living in an area of Provincia Buenos Aires where no one is sleeping in the street and there is no violent crime. In fact, there is hardly any crime at all and I am the only expat in the area.

 

[earlyretirement]

It isn't momentarily harder to qualify for a resident visa to live here as an expat. It is far more difficult income wise to qualify for the visa rentista. When I started the thread I specifically included North America, Europe, and Australia to make a distinction between expats from these regions as compared to immigrants from countries like China. There probably aren't many Chinese coming here and applying for the visa rentista and they certainly aren't active on this site. They probably aren't selling their children to get here, either.

It is completely natural for expats from Europe and North America to compare life here with their home countries. If life wasn't better for me in Argentina I simply would not stay, but if I wanted to move here from the US now (instead of 2006) I would not be able to qualify for a resident visa and would not be a BAEXPAT today. I consider myself lucky I received permanent residency before the income requirement for the visa rentista tripled.

I also consider myself lucky to be living in an area of Provincia Buenos Aires where no one is sleeping in the street and there is no violent crime. In fact, there is hardly any crime at all and I am the only expat in the area.

Steve,

I know SO MANY people that are in your exact same position if they didn't already have their permanent residency they would have never been able to quality with the new income requirements. But then again, that always surprises me because really the income requirements before were a joke. You can't really live here on that low of a requirement here. Certainly not with a family. Even single I'm not sure how they could.

I think it's only natural for ExPats on an ex pat site such as this to compare life back "home". I really doubt many people on "BAExpats" are from Mercosur countries or really poor countries. I could be wrong but I just don't get that impression after reading the posts.

Now granted I've never lived in a really poor or undeveloped country but I've traveled to plenty including all in South America. Really, I think that BA is definitely the best city to live in here in South America. Quality of life if you have $$$$ is really fantastic. And even if you don't.....one of the things that brought me to Buenos Aires was not the cheap living. It was the excitement of the city, the zest for life, the energy and creatively of the locals. Also, I really love (and still do) that family is so important here. THAT is what drove me to the country and a reason I'll always love it.

27% inflation or not..... those characteristics I never see changing here. Where else can you go in the world where you see a 70 year old up and drinking coffee at a cafe at 2 AM!!??

It's one of the reasons why I love this city. I think many Expats would agree. It's a great city so I always see some Expats here although I think the profile of the typical Expat is changing and has been evident over the last few years.

When I moved here 7 years ago you had younger expats bragging how cheap it was. I don't see that now.... And that is ok...