Newcomer Change in expat attitudes?

[SerchMinm]

Do I detect a change in the attitudes of expats? Any post critical of problems in Argentina used to be met with emotional denials, insistence that life in BA was a virtual paradise. I now sense general agreement that the crime and inflation situations are very serious. Those who argue otherwise seem to be few and far between. Have the expat apologists left or have them become realistic?

 

[NigjeFs]

You are now just starting to feel the same way locals do...

 

[DaveDed]

I am one of those expats with a changed attitude. I used to believe there was light at the end of the tunnel, and it seems to be dimming with each incident. I don't plan to leave just yet, but I definitely don't have the same hope as I once did for this land. I am sorry Argentina, I still love you but my heart is breaking.......

 

[Mart]

I don't know - even when times were good - very few "expats" lasted more than a year or two at most. And now that things are getting expensive and security is getting worse (or at least it feels that way), it is any shock that people would leave earlier than expected?

I have chosen to make my life here but it's not easy. A year ago, I seriously didn't know if I would last here. And I have access to a support network and a job which make life much easier than the one the average expat faces.

 

[MelodyMirt]

Yesterday my first client told me about how they had lived here for 4 years, everything was doable until one afternoon the family finds two robbers with knives inside their apartment. They lost everything.
He can't sleep properly at night any more.

Now he's moved his family back & is making arrangements to sell everything & can't wait to leave.

My second clients drops in after him, she has an old laptop...I ask her about it she says it's a temp replacement computer after she was robbed by three female robbers in her shop.

I'm really starting to get sick of this. I keep hearing these stories...it feels like we are all lambs to the slaughter...just waiting for our turn t come.

I'm really angry about the uselessness of the people who run this country.
Then I read some posts by some locals here & the profound tone of arrogance & ignorance is staggering to witness.

I hope to hear some good stories soon.

 

[YenyLer]

As Mart said, most expats only last a year or two. And I'm sure a lot of those leaving arrived in 2009/2010 with the belief that things were cheap. If their USD / Euro have dried up then they know it's not so cheap. So I'm sure a lot of those exiting are from about that time.

Very few of us survive the 5 year + haul. There's always a new wave replacing the last. And just before people leave they always get very bitter and start raging against Argentina -- and then six months after they've moved back to their home country they start waxing on romantically about how fantastic BA is... The rose-colored glasses seem to come back on, but very few actually make the move back here again.

 

[RinderHerts]

I think that if you came to Buenos Aires cause its cheap, you came for the wrong reasons, and you will soon leave.

But I also live near Vancouver, when I am in El Norte, and the concept that you can eat ANY meal in Vancouver of comparable quality for twenty eight bucks is riddicle doccle. RE-DICK-EL DOCK-EL. That means, absurd.

I can barely get away spending 20 bucks at the Richmond Night Market. And thats grease on a stick.

Any decent restaurant in Vancouver is gonna run 50 bucks a head. And there are plenty of restaurants in Van that cost triple that, with drinks.

I love eating in Vancouver, but a decent meal in a no name curry house in Punjabi Market is more expensive than La Cabrera, if you have a beer.

 

[BobyGulter]

I don't find the steak arguments on either side very compelling. At least for me the cost of steaks restaurants isn't a major component in my cost of living. As far as day trips go there are a few things to see near B.A., but let's face it for hundreds of kilometers the landscape is about as exciting as Kansas. There are some nice mountains and other attractive things to see but not that close to B.A. To tout the interior is about like pointing to the rocky mountains as a reason to live in Chicago. As far as taxes go they are quite high in Argentina if you are actually paying what you are suppose to. Food beyond steaks is very limited although there are some very good restaurants there, although the number is remarkably small give the size of the city.

I don't understand why people always try to compare it to some expensive city in the U.S. or elsewhere and then pronounce B.A. as a bargain in comparison. I've never understood why anybody would live in San Francisco, New York, Vancouver, or some like super expensive city unless they can make a lot more money there than somewhere else. If you aren't making a lot more your standard of living is just going to be a lot lower. If you aren't making a lot more by the time you get done paying for the basics your lucky to have enough left for a good hot-dog, you can forget about taking advantage of a lot of what these expensive cities have to offer. The whole B.A. to these pricey places is always seems apples and oranges to me. I suppose if your income stays the same as one of these uber-expensive cities then B.A. is a bargain in comparison. But in comparison to the average of most cities in North America B.A. is no bargain today.

 

[SantiBouns]

$28 CAD doesn't leave much room for the 12 or 13% HST (whatever it is, I haven't lived in Vancouver for awhile), the ridiculous mark up on alcohol in restaurants in BC, and the 15-20% tip.

C$28 I'll allow for a plate, but not for a meal that includes any appetizer or booze -- or bottled water. In which case, can you real call that a "nice steak dinner"? I'd just call that a "nice steak entree"

Moving to BA because it's a bargain will not make you happy. But despite the crap on the streets, Palermo, Las Can, or Recoleta are a hell of a lot more interesting than Kits, Yaletown, or the West End. I mean, for god's sake, my mum lives on Richards and Davie and when I go home I don't even need earplugs because there's not a peep after about 8pm -- and that's in one of Vancouvers "hottest" neighbourhoods.

What I miss about Vancouver is the sports -- snowboarding and windsurfing -- and the variety of ethnic food. But when you go back there from here it is DEAD, there is NO ONE around, it's a tiny little village that likes to pretend it's cosmopolitan.

 

[SerchMinm]

The price of a steak dinner is not all that important as I see it. What matters to me is the reality that Argentina is now a much tougher country in which to earn a living -- unless you earn dollars or some other hard currency. Like a lot of Argentines, my ability to maintain the same standard of living dropped a few years ago. Expats who have more than enough money to live well in BA are lucky and I wish them well but the reality is simply different for most people.

 

[earlyretirement]

I agree that most ex-pats don't last too long in Buenos Aires. I'm one of the exceptions. I've lived in Buenos Aires full time over 7 years now but I'm one of the ones leaving for good. I'm moving back to the USA next month. I'll always love Argentina but people would be in denial if they tried to say things aren't getting worse here.

I'm sure I'll always be connected to Argentina and will always love it. Warts and all.

One of the main reasons we decided to move was we had 2 kids (both born in Argentina and they are "portenos". I don't think Buenos Aires is a good place to raise kids. And petty crime is definitely on the increase. We also have a good friend that is very wealthy that had their daughter kidnapped and ransomed so that isn't something we want to have to deal with. Apparently amongst the wealthy, this happens often and never gets reported to the police.

You all like to throw out statistics and say how statistically BA is safer than many cities but it's a bit of nonsense because most people that get robbed do NOT go to the police to report it. The people that kidnapped our friend's daughter and threatened to kill her even bragged they were working with the police. Police officers have also been caught in serious crimes and bank robberies here.

Since the judicial system doesn't function in Argentina, these criminals can continue to do this at free will. Have any of you ever tried to deal with the legal system here???? It does NOT work.

Besides the crime, however, I can't in good conscious raise my kids in Buenos Aires. As much as I love Argentina, there is tremendous corruption here and the way locals won't hesitate to cheat you or con you is normal here. I don't want to raise my kids in this kind of environment.

It's not even a matter of it getting more expensive or cost of living situation with us as we are moving to one of the most expensive cities in the USA. However, I will say when it was so cheap it was easy to look the other way and make excuses that it's so cheap here that it was worth it to put up with the red tape and inefficiencies. That isn't the case anymore with the 25% to 30% inflation per year. The run away inflation is going to cause more problems here.

Also, forget about running a company here. The laws all work against you for having employees. If you work in the "white" and legal here it's darn tough to make money here. The right hand never knows what the left hand is doing. The banking system is broken. The judicial system is broken. And on and on and on.

From my extensive experience in Argentina living here the past 7 years and owning several businesses in town. I'd say Argentina is ideal for people that are living on a pension or have disability or SS payments that need to live on a fixed income that they get in dollars/euros/sterling/etc. Where if you had enough money to pay for a property free and clear with cash you can live very well as utilities are dirt cheap here and subsidized by the government.

Things like electricity, water, gas are VERY cheap here. Condo fees are going up with inflation each year about 25% to 30% a year however. But the actual utilities besides high-speed internet are cheap. Internet is about the same price as the USA and service pretty much sucks here compared to most first world countries.

Good for those that do NOT need to work here or do not own a company here. Owning a company here is a major hassle and the laws here all work against you. The mandatory 25% to 30% a year raises (depending on which union you are in) are crazy and makes budgeting impossible.

It can also be good for those that work over the phone/internet and can make income in the currency back home.

But even for those people, there are the other issues like the lack of variety of food compared to the USA can get old. Most restaurants basically have the same menu. Yeah, there are some ethnic restaurants but they are few and far between.

Grocery stores here suck compared to the USA and not much variety and now dealing with import bans. Also always seems to be tons of line. Lines in super markets, lines in post office. Sometimes it can feel like waiting in a line all the time. Sure, we have a full-time maid and we can send her but on the weekends I like going and picking out my own things at places like Jumbo but now that they are banning all the imported stuff there are less and less things.

Also, air quality here is horrible compared to most cities in the USA. Traffic is horrible here and drivers have no respect for pedestrians..not even mothers with strollers! I've been all over the world and I've never met worse and impolite and impatient drivers that do NOT respect basic common sense rules of the road and also have such a lack of respect for pedestrians.

Again, I'm not trying to knock Buenos Aires as I really love it and always will. But there are serious problems in this country. When I moved here, I assumed that Argentina had the potential to change. But the longer I live here, the longer I realize that I will probably never see systematic change in my lifetime here in Argentina. (And keep in mind I'm not such an old guy... still in my late 30's).

Some things I will miss but I can always come down here. Even though I'm leaving I will keep the properties I own here so I always have a place to stay.

 

[StiveCosae]

I agree that most ex-pats don't last too long in Buenos Aires. I'm one of the exceptions. I've lived in Buenos Aires full time over 7 years now but I'm one of the ones leaving for good. I'm moving back to the USA next month. I'll always love Argentina but people would be in denial if they tried to say things aren't getting worse here.

I'm sure I'll always be connected to Argentina and will always love it. Warts and all.

One of the main reasons we decided to move was we had 2 kids (both born in Argentina and they are "portenos". I don't think Buenos Aires is a good place to raise kids. And petty crime is definitely on the increase. We also have a good friend that is very wealthy that had their daughter kidnapped and ransomed so that isn't something we want to have to deal with. Apparently amongst the wealthy, this happens often and never gets reported to the police.

You all like to throw out statistics and say how statistically BA is safer than many cities but it's a bit of nonsense because most people that get robbed do NOT go to the police to report it. The people that kidnapped our friend's daughter and threatened to kill her even bragged they were working with the police. Police officers have also been caught in serious crimes and bank robberies here.

Since the judicial system doesn't function in Argentina, these criminals can continue to do this at free will. Have any of you ever tried to deal with the legal system here???? It does NOT work.

Besides the crime, however, I can't in good conscious raise my kids in Buenos Aires. As much as I love Argentina, there is tremendous corruption here and the way locals won't hesitate to cheat you or con you is normal here. I don't want to raise my kids in this kind of environment.

It's not even a matter of it getting more expensive or cost of living situation with us as we are moving to one of the most expensive cities in the USA. However, I will say when it was so cheap it was easy to look the other way and make excuses that it's so cheap here that it was worth it to put up with the red tape and inefficiencies. That isn't the case anymore with the 25% to 30% inflation per year. The run away inflation is going to cause more problems here.

Also, forget about running a company here. The laws all work against you for having employees. If you work in the "white" and legal here it's darn tough to make money here. The right hand never knows what the left hand is doing. The banking system is broken. The judicial system is broken. And on and on and on.

From my extensive experience in Argentina living here the past 7 years and owning several businesses in town. I'd say Argentina is ideal for people that are living on a pension or have disability or SS payments that need to live on a fixed income that they get in dollars/euros/sterling/etc. Where if you had enough money to pay for a property free and clear with cash you can live very well as utilities are dirt cheap here and subsidized by the government.

Things like electricity, water, gas are VERY cheap here. Condo fees are going up with inflation each year about 25% to 30% a year however. But the actual utilities besides high-speed internet are cheap. Internet is about the same price as the USA and service pretty much sucks here compared to most first world countries.

Good for those that do NOT need to work here or do not own a company here. Owning a company here is a major hassle and the laws here all work against you. The mandatory 25% to 30% a year raises (depending on which union you are in) are crazy and makes budgeting impossible.

It can also be good for those that work over the phone/internet and can make income in the currency back home.

But even for those people, there are the other issues like the lack of variety of food compared to the USA can get old. Most restaurants basically have the same menu. Yeah, there are some ethnic restaurants but they are few and far between.

Grocery stores here suck compared to the USA and not much variety and now dealing with import bans. Also always seems to be tons of line. Lines in super markets, lines in post office. Sometimes it can feel like waiting in a line all the time. Sure, we have a full-time maid and we can send her but on the weekends I like going and picking out my own things at places like Jumbo but now that they are banning all the imported stuff there are less and less things.

Also, air quality here is horrible compared to most cities in the USA. Traffic is horrible here and drivers have no respect for pedestrians..not even mothers with strollers! I've been all over the world and I've never met worse and impolite and impatient drivers that do NOT respect basic common sense rules of the road and also have such a lack of respect for pedestrians.

Again, I'm not trying to knock Buenos Aires as I really love it and always will. But there are serious problems in this country. When I moved here, I assumed that Argentina had the potential to change. But the longer I live here, the longer I realize that I will probably never see systematic change in my lifetime here in Argentina. (And keep in mind I'm not such an old guy... still in my late 30's).

Some things I will miss but I can always come down here. Even though I'm leaving I will keep the properties I own here so I always have a place to stay.

This is the best post I've ever read in this forum.

 

[earlyretirement]

This is the best post I've ever read in this forum.

Thanks Stive for such kind words. I appreciate those words.

I just hope my post comes across the right way. I've read a few posts by what seems like spiteful foreigners that come here, get beaten down by the mess that can be Argentina and they lash out. I'm not one of those people.

I'm one of the fortunate ones that was successful in Argentina. But I know I'm not in the majority. Argentina is a brutally tough place to do business. You can read that over and over and not think that can be true. But the facts are coming here on vacation and living here day in and day out are two different things.

You'd think I'd get use to the inefficiencies, red tape, hassles, horrible banking system, non-functional judicial system. But the facts are that not a day goes by that I think to myself this is a bit maddening how the locals can be and how the system is broken.

I never once got used to it even after living here all these years. And the sad part is that this craziness is "normal" to a Porteno. Most don't realize that it's NOT normal until they move out of Argentina and see how the first world works and how efficient other countries are.

If you do something or get conned or get robbed and you might tell a story to a local, they will tell you how it was your fault for not being more careful. That is THEIR "normal".

I have hundreds of examples, especially with the company. I've seen cases and where friends that own companies, have workers that get caught drinking on the job and fire them. The worker gets some scumbag lawyer and still ends up winning.

The labor laws need to be changed as well. It's totally broken.

I'm not saying that you can't have a good quality of life here. Because you most certainly can. In fact, maybe when I'm older and fully retired, and my kids are out of the house I'll move back to Buenos Aires. For those that don't work, have plenty of income, etc. it can be nice.

I mean you have some luxuries like having a full time maid for less than $500 US a month..... a chef for $500 a month. Heck, even if you have tons of money, most people in other parts of the world can't get those things.... Things like that are nice.

But with the runaway inflation, I have a feeling there is going to be a domino effect of problems here and crime will continue to go up. I'm not saying I think Buenos Aires is a dangerous place. Because I certainly don't. But when you have insane inflation like this it causes another set of problems.

 

[SantiBouns]

Thanks Stive for such kind words. I appreciate those words.

I just hope my post comes across the right way. I've read a few posts by what seems like spiteful foreigners that come here, get beaten down by the mess that can be Argentina and they lash out. I'm not one of those people.

I'm one of the fortunate ones that was successful in Argentina. But I know I'm not in the majority. Argentina is a brutally tough place to do business. You can read that over and over and not think that can be true. But the facts are coming here on vacation and living here day in and day out are two different things.

You'd think I'd get use to the inefficiencies, red tape, hassles, horrible banking system, non-functional judicial system. But the facts are that not a day goes by that I think to myself this is a bit maddening how the locals can be and how the system is broken.

I never once got used to it even after living here all these years. And the sad part is that this craziness is "normal" to a Porteno. Most don't realize that it's NOT normal until they move out of Argentina and see how the first world works and how efficient other countries are.

If you do something or get conned or get robbed and you might tell a story to a local, they will tell you how it was your fault for not being more careful. That is THEIR "normal".

I have hundreds of examples, especially with the company. I've seen cases and where friends that own companies, have workers that get caught drinking on the job and fire them. The worker gets some scumbag lawyer and still ends up winning.

The labor laws need to be changed as well. It's totally broken.

I'm not saying that you can't have a good quality of life here. Because you most certainly can. In fact, maybe when I'm older and fully retired, and my kids are out of the house I'll move back to Buenos Aires. For those that don't work, have plenty of income, etc. it can be nice.

I mean you have some luxuries like having a full time maid for less than $500 US a month..... a chef for $500 a month. Heck, even if you have tons of money, most people in other parts of the world can't get those things.... Things like that are nice.

But with the runaway inflation, I have a feeling there is going to be a domino effect of problems here and crime will continue to go up. I'm not saying I think Buenos Aires is a dangerous place. Because I certainly don't. But when you have insane inflation like this it causes another set of problems.

I agree with all of your points, very good summary of the problems of living in Argentina. I guess its up to each individual to decide when the negatives outweigh the positives. I came to the conclusion that the negatives outweighed the positives as well but only after a couple of years. Some day change will come but I agree it may not be in our lifetimes. Its a country with enormous potential and I hope someday it will be realized.

 

[AddaNights]

I'd just like to balance it out a bit and vote for the "I love BsAs" party. I've been here over 4 years and I'm here to stay. Married to an Argentine and we have never even considered moving to the States (my home.) I want to say something without sounding haughty. If you don't speak the language fluently, (I'm talking being at a table full of Argentines and truly understanding 96% and being able to join the convo with the same stamina) I'm going to go right ahead and tell you that it's one of your #1 problems if you are part of the other voting party. I'm not saying speaking castellano will keep you from getting robbed, but you become part of this place in a way that you will never experience otherwise; and that experience gives you a whole new look on the community. Before you all jump on me, I'm sure that some of you who are expressing disdain do speak that well.

 

[earlyretirement]

I'd just like to balance it out a bit and vote for the "I love BsAs" party. I've been here over 4 years and I'm here to stay. Married to an Argentine and we have never even considered moving to the States (my home.) I want to say something without sounding haughty. If you don't speak the language fluently, (I'm talking being at a table full of Argentines and truly understanding 96% and being able to join the convo with the same stamina) I'm going to go right ahead and tell you that it's one of your #1 problems if you are part of the other voting party. I'm not saying speaking castellano will keep you from getting robbed, but you become part of this place in a way that you will never experience otherwise; and that experience gives you a whole new look on the community. Before you all jump on me, I'm sure that some of you who are expressing disdain do speak that well.

Well, I"m not sure if you were directing your post at me but I'm fluent in Spanish and my wife is a native speaker and all her family lives here in Buenos Aires as well. I almost NEVER hang out with expats either as all my friends are locals. So this doesn't apply to me.

We know many locals that are also moving out of Buenos Aires or are planning to in the next year. It has nothing to do with language skills. The problems I mentioned are VERY real problems and issues.

Most of our friends own businesses here. Some large ..some small. But the thing they all mention and which I already know is that it doesn't make sense running a business here. The laws all work against you. A VERY anti-business climate as Citygirl mentioned. Now I understand and agree with a bit of protecting worker's rights but it has gone too far and shifted away from any reality.

You have situations where workers call in sick, get a doctors note (which many doctors you can pay to get these) and you can get workers that don't show up several days per month. Someone gets hurt outside of work? Pay their entire salary and you can't fire them for 1 year. Someone steals from you and you fire them for cause? A good chance you'll still have to pay them a high severance even if you are firing them for cause.... It can feel like a bizarro world here sometimes if you own a business. Sometimes you will scratch your head and think to yourself, "now that can NOT be right".... but such is life in Argentina.

I will admit if you aren't running a business here or in one of the examples listed above, life is much more peaceful here. But even so, there are a lot of inefficiencies here. If you aren't a type A personality then you can put up with them. Not everything is bad about Buenos Aires so I hope I don't give the wrong impression but there are enough bad things here.

Where else in the world do you hear of a building having their gas go out for 3 months without getting fixed?? Here it happens in many buildings including where my mother in law lives....

 

[Mart]

Well, I'm here and intending to stay here. However, as I've posted, we're not going to do more business here and let the existing business wind down.

Several of my close friends (porteños included) are planning on leaving in the next year. Which sucks since I thought when I stopped hanging out with expats, that I would be safe from this. But many that can leave are taking the opportunity to do so.

To the poster who asked about the problems - have you spent time here? What do you know about BsAs?

In a nutshell, what many people are struggling with:
1) Difficulties getting anything done here - getting something repaired, getting a utility set up, dealing with the bank, doing your tramites, pretty much anything
2) 25-30% annual inflation
3) Crime (which is equally prevalent in the neighborhoods on the "right side of the tracks" as it is on the wrong side
4) Salaries not keeping up with inflation
5) If you have a business here, a very anti-business climate
6) Politics

Look, everyone has a different experience here. It's not perfect (which you usually here from people who have been here on vacation for two weeks.) It's not hell on earth (which you usually here from people who are leaving after being here a year or two). It's somewhere in the middle. Come down, spend time & see how you feel.