Newcomer Considering retiring in Argentina but have so many questions

[AmirJacks]

I don't feel comfortable walking around with a bag of money to go to the Colegio de Escribanos. If the seller wants Ben bills, they can meet me where I say and then it is their business how they bring the money away safely.

My first property was paid by bank transfer abroad, sellers were foreigners. We sat at the Escribano's office and everybody was in the room while I arranged the wire transfer from my laptop, followed by a phone call to my bank. I had informed my bank in advance that I was about to make a large transfer on that day to avoid hiccups.
Everybody signed, the seller confirmed they had received the money 1-2 days later, once the period to cancel the transfer had elapsed and the transaction was no longer pending. A week later I went at the escribano office to pick my final deed.

While pushing a stack of money over the table can be suggestive in a movie and it is definitely more immediate than the w/t, it is a big safety risk for both the seller and the purchasers. Of course "here they do it all the time", but it is also the only country where I heard stories of bank employees leaking information to robbers, assault to banks on a transaction day, people being followed (they have your address) etc. As soon as you rent a bank room on a given day/time, they will know that a large amount of cash will be coming in or out of the building. They also have your address on file, so they know where to find you...

When did the foreign seller sign the conveyance deed? In the US an escrow agent holds both the monies from the purchaser and the signed conveyance deed from the seller so the escrow agent holds all the cards and makes sure no one gets cheated. After both parties have performed the escrow agent wires final payment to the seller.

 

[earlyretirement]

When did the foreign seller sign the conveyance deed? In the US an escrow agent holds both the monies from the purchaser and the signed conveyance deed from the seller so the escrow agent holds all the cards and makes sure no one gets cheated. After both parties have performed the escrow agent wires final payment to the seller.

You do a title deed signing (escritura) and the times that I did it, I used the same escribano for all of the properties that I purchased. It was a pretty easy process where both sides signed the title deed but it stipulated that it wasn't valid until the secondary document was signed confirming the funds were received. The escribano held onto the paperwork until the funds cleared but it never took more than 1 day as most cases I was wiring into the USA or Europe.


The key is to arrange the title deed signing in the morning so typically funds would always clear that same day. The seller would give the Escribano the keys to the apartment and they wouldn't hand them over until the wire was received. You would sign first before you wired the money but the escribano would ensure that the seller signed and I always wondered what would happen if the seller tried to say they never received the funds but these days it's all trackable so I doubt any seller's would even attempt it.

I never had any issues doing it this way. It was always preferred to do it this way for obvious reasons. Plus it was cheaper not having to move funds into Argentina.

My biggest issue was that most sellers (if I was buying) wanted to declare a fake lower artificial price so they wouldn't have to pay as much taxes. And could also keep part of the cash undeclared. So in many cases, the lawyer would have you do the 30% boleto and then later at the signing they would destroy the boleto and they would use 70% that you were wiring for the remaining balance due and use that price on the title deed.

These days I'd never agree to that as there is no capital gains taxes when selling. Previously for many years there was 0% capital gains taxes to worry about in Argentina.

 

[MisSnow]

Definitely what you write about bank employees leaking information is completely true. I have first hand witnessed a few times when people got robbed immediately after leaving a bank. I personally witnessed a time at the HSBC in Recoleta when an old lady was leaving the bank and a motorcycle with 2 guys on it grabbed the lady's purse. I posted about it on this forum many, many years ago.

It was amazing watching the lady holding on to her big purse. They dragged her halfway down the block but eventually they got away. I thought to myself, for sure someone in the bank probably called or texted someone that she was leaving. This is the reason why when you're sitting in a bank's lobby they don't allow you to use your cellphone.

My verdulero went to pick up some cash from his bank branch. Small money to us - in pesos, equivalent to 1500 USD; to him, one third of all his savings in the bank.
The bank teller "marked" him, he was followed to his home while he drove 5 blocks by car, and they stole the money from him. I can't imagine myself doing it with a hundred time more cash. When he told me, he was still in shock, repeating "me marcaron, me marcaron". He said he couldn't bear himself to tell to his wife that he lost 1500 USD that day. I told him to file a report with the police. He said they wouldn't do anything and that there is a policemen right outside the branch, probably also part of the whole robbery.

 

[MisSnow]

When did the foreign seller sign the conveyance deed? In the US an escrow agent holds both the monies from the purchaser and the signed conveyance deed from the seller so the escrow agent holds all the cards and makes sure no one gets cheated. After both parties have performed the escrow agent wires final payment to the seller.

The conveyance deed was signed right after I wired the money at the Escribano office, but the paperwork was left at the escribano's. He took the subsequent step (registration of the deed at the Colegio de Escribanos) once the sellers had confirmed that the money was credited on their account.

It wasn't ideal (I wired a lot of $$$ and walked away with no deed and no keys), but better than doing the same thing with a bag of cash. At least I had a bank transaction to prove I had paid!
In any case, the deed is registered at the Colegio de Escribanos AFTER the deed signing. Until the deed is not registered with the Colegio, you are still in a limbo, somehow.

At the deed signing there were the sellers, the escribano, the real estate agents (we had 2). They wanted also cash (around 30%) as the deed was done for the amount wired (70%). We left some cash at the Boleto de compra signing (about a month before the closing), and we brought more cash on the day of the conveyance deed to pay the escribano, the real estate agents, and again the sellers.
The deed stated that the payment was made by bank transfer, and listed the details of both the buyers and the sellers' banks.

 

[earlyretirement]

My verdulero went to pick up some cash from his bank branch. Small money to us - in pesos, equivalent to 1500 USD; to him, one third of all his savings in the bank.
The bank teller "marked" him, he was followed to his home while he drove 5 blocks by car, and they stole the money from him. I can't imagine myself doing it with a hundred time more cash. When he told me, he was still in shock, repeating "me marcaron, me marcaron". He said he couldn't bear himself to tell to his wife that he lost 1500 USD that day. I told him to file a report with the police. He said they wouldn't do anything and that there is a policemen right outside the branch, probably also part of the whole robbery.

Yes, I don't know how common this is but most people are very careful and don't actually carry funds in a bag or their pockets, etc. For example, I previously owned several businesses in Argentina where we dealt with cash. But never got robbed. I'd have these special socks where you could put them at the side of your pants on your leg. I could fit $40,000 US on each leg so $80,000 in your legs where you pull up your socks. You couldn't see it at all.

I'd also take precautions like have a friend pick us up and pick us up right at the door after a closing.

Fortunately guns are extremely rare in Buenos Aires. Even the robberies that I witnessed were mostly just 2 guys on a motorcycle. I actually never saw any armed robberies. I once saw a shoot out with thieves trying to rob people at the corner of Rodriguez Peña and Posadas. The police caught them and were firing at them. But even in that case I didn't see the thieves with any guns.

 

[earlyretirement]

The conveyance deed was signed right after I wired the money at the Escribano office, but the paperwork was left at the escribano's. He took the subsequent step (registration of the deed at the Colegio de Escribanos) once the sellers had confirmed that the money was credited on their account.

It wasn't ideal (I wired a lot of $$$ and walked away with no deed and no keys), but better than doing the same thing with a bag of cash. At least I had a bank transaction to prove I had paid!
In any case, the deed is registered at the Colegio de Escribanos AFTER the deed signing. Until the deed is not registered with the Colegio, you are still in a limbo, somehow.

At the deed signing there were the sellers, the escribano, the real estate agents (we had 2). They wanted also cash (around 30%) as the deed was done for the amount wired (70%). We left some cash at the Boleto de compra signing (about a month before the closing), and we brought more cash on the day of the conveyance deed to pay the escribano, the real estate agents, and again the sellers.
The deed stated that the payment was made by bank transfer, and listed the details of both the buyers and the sellers' banks.

Yep. This is exactly the same process that I did several times. The key is to make sure you have a really good Escribano. There are some in Buenos Aires that have a lot of experience with foreigner buyers. You never want to use the Escribano referred by the realtors. You always want to pick your own as it is your legal right and privilege to do.

RinoG's experience is the exact same as several of my purchases.

 

[MisSnow]

You do a title deed signing (escritura) and the times that I did it, I used the same escribano for all of the properties that I purchased. It was a pretty easy process where both sides signed the title deed but it stipulated that it wasn't valid until the secondary document was signed confirming the funds were received. The escribano held onto the paperwork until the funds cleared but it never took more than 1 day as most cases I was wiring into the USA or Europe.


The key is to arrange the title deed signing in the morning so typically funds would always clear that same day. The seller would give the Escribano the keys to the apartment and they wouldn't hand them over until the wire was received. You would sign first before you wired the money but the escribano would ensure that the seller signed and I always wondered what would happen if the seller tried to say they never received the funds but these days it's all trackable so I doubt any seller's would even attempt it.

I never had any issues doing it this way. It was always preferred to do it this way for obvious reasons. Plus it was cheaper not having to move funds into Argentina.

My biggest issue was that most sellers (if I was buying) wanted to declare a fake lower artificial price so they wouldn't have to pay as much taxes. And could also keep part of the cash undeclared. So in many cases, the lawyer would have you do the 30% boleto and then later at the signing they would destroy the boleto and they would use 70% that you were wiring for the remaining balance due and use that price on the title deed.

These days I'd never agree to that as there is no capital gains taxes when selling. Previously for many years there was 0% capital gains taxes to worry about in Argentina.

Is this in reference to Argentina or the US?
Our sellers were from the US selling their vacation pad, and I was surprised to hear that they wanted part payment in cash. I supposed it was to pay less capital gain taxes in the US. They bought during the golden era of 2007, so they made a lot of money with that apartment.

 

[earlyretirement]

Is this in reference to Argentina or the US?
Our sellers were from the US selling their vacation pad, and I was surprised to hear that they wanted part payment in cash. I supposed it was to pay less capital gain taxes in the US. They bought during the golden era of 2007, so they made a lot of money with that apartment.

I was referencing ONLY Argentina. There has always been capital gains taxes when you sell as a US citizen no matter where in the world you sell and make a capital gain. Apologies if my post was confusing. I meant that previously there was no capital gains taxes in Argentina when selling real estate. Now after January 1, 2018 you have capital gains taxes when selling. I believe it's 15% of the actual gain if I recall correctly.

However, there are a lot of ways that many Americans that bought during those golden years lowered their capital gain. For example, some would do the same thing and want to declare less on the title deed. Or more times than not even if they didn't want to, it was the Argentine buyer that wanted to declare less on the title deed. That happens a LOT in Argentina. AFIP does some things now to prevent using too low of a price but there is always ways to go lower.


Some times you could put that part of the money was for furnishings/furniture. I'm not sure how prevalent this is now as I haven't bought or sold anything in Argentina since right before COVID. The capital gains tax started I believe January 1, 2018. If you bought before then, you aren't subject to capital gains taxes. All of the properties I purchased were bought well before that so I didn't have to deal with capital gains taxes in Argentina. I had to in the USA where I'm originally from.


On the last apartment I sold, I sold it furnished with everything in it. Furniture, decorations, artwork, etc. The buyer was adamant about declaring a lower purchase price. I didn't want to go that low but in the end, to close the deal, we agreed to put that 30% of the purchase price was for all the furniture/furnishings/artwork. It was all stipulated on all legal work (boleto, etc). But then on the final closing "escritura" we just used the final 70% price that he paid for the apartment.
It ended up working for me as the taxes were less selling. Stamp tax (impuestos de sellos), transfer tax (impuesto de transferencia), etc. The lawyers and realtors still charged on the full price for their fees.

The buyer was a really nice guy. He told me he didn't have enough justifiable income to declare the real price plus he wanted to pay less property taxes each year. Even when you want to do everything legally and in white, it's almost impossible in Argentina. SO many shades of grey in Argentina.


This was one of the most frustrating things when I first moved to Argentina. I tried to do everything legal and in white and if I could go back in time, I would have just listened to my accountants and lawyers that told me that it's impossible to do 100% in white in Argentina. I spent so many years thinking they were wrong but this is one of the things you have to realize about Argentina. It's impossible to do everything 100% legal and in white every single time even if you wanted to.

 

[BenColins]

Rent a place for a few months and you''ll have a great part of your questions answered while here. Even for me, coming back to Argentina every year, several times a year on vacations to visit my family, did not prepare me enough for dealing with daily life and after moving back to BA and my worries are far different than those of my local friends and relatives.
P.S,: Society here has changed a lot so you might feel for sometimes like you landed in another planet.

 

[earlyretirement]

Rent a place for a few months and you''ll have a great part of your questions answered while here. Even for me, coming back to Argentina every year, several times a year on vacations to visit my family, did not prepare me enough for dealing with daily life and after moving back to BA and my worries are far different than those of my local friends and relatives.
P.S,: Society here has changed a lot so you might feel for sometimes like you landed in another planet.

This is EXCELLENT advice. It's crazy not to rent in different areas and neighborhoods and see which you like the best before deciding where to settle down. And don't rush into buying as there are a ton of great deals renting these days with all the Airbnb options out there.


Lots of expats love many things about Buenos Aires but there is a lot that you probably never will get used to coming from a first world country like USA, Canada or UK. The biggest complaint for many will probably be the lack of efficiency in Argentina. Also, the customer service pretty much sucks in Argentina. And things like buying and returning things that don't work in Argentina is a hassle compared to the USA. All my friends that move to the USA from abroad (especially South America) are amazed with how easy it is to return stuff here in the USA. You can buy something and if it doesn't work you can easily return it to the store. Some places as much as several months after you purchased it.

In many places, you'll get the sense that they really don't care. For example, internet can go down for days and you'll call in and you don't get the sense that the person on the other end of the phone cares if you ever get service back. My mother in law that lives in Recoleta had her gas go out in her building due to someone reporting a gas smell. It took 8 MONTHS to get it fixed. I had a similar type issue in another apartment I owned and took several months.


Things like this can drive you truly mad. You'd never have a situation like this in a first world country with no gas or hot water for months upon months.


In first world countries you have organizations like Better Business Bureau that helps you resolve disputes. Even if Argentina says they have some agency, they really don't work well. Also, no real working judicial system or small claims court type set up like we have in the USA.


I'm NOT trying to compare the USA or other countries with Argentina because they are worlds apart. I just mention it as it's one thing that many people that don't know how it is there will drive themselves crazy if they don't go into retirement there in Argentina knowing a bit about things there.

Argentina is a wonderful country and overall I think I enjoy it more than the USA, especially for retirement. I think the healthcare system is FAR better in Argentina vs. the USA.

 

[MisSnow]

Yes, I don't know how common this is but most people are very careful and don't actually carry funds in a bag or their pockets, etc. For example, I previously owned several businesses in Argentina where we dealt with cash. But never got robbed. I'd have these special socks where you could put them at the side of your pants on your leg. I could fit $40,000 US on each leg so $80,000 in your legs where you pull up your socks. You couldn't see it at all.

I'd also take precautions like have a friend pick us up and pick us up right at the door after a closing.

Fortunately guns are extremely rare in Buenos Aires. Even the robberies that I witnessed were mostly just 2 guys on a motorcycle. I actually never saw any armed robberies. I once saw a shoot out with thieves trying to rob people at the corner of Rodriguez Peña and Posadas. The police caught them and were firing at them. But even in that case I didn't see the thieves with any guns.

I have seen those. However, I don't think that we are the only two to know about them. If they point a gun at you, you empty your pockets... and sockets!

 

[earlyretirement]

I have seen those. However, I don't think that we are the only two to know about them. If they point a gun at you, you empty your pockets... and sockets!

Sure of course. But I guess my point is that it's VERY RARE that you would be in a situation where someone pointed a gun at you in Argentina. It's rare.

 

[CreyCruz]

This is EXCELLENT advice. It's crazy not to rent in different areas and neighborhoods and see which you like the best before deciding where to settle down. And don't rush into buying as there are a ton of great deals renting these days with all the Airbnb options out there.


Lots of expats love many things about Buenos Aires but there is a lot that you probably never will get used to coming from a first world country like USA, Canada or UK. The biggest complaint for many will probably be the lack of efficiency in Argentina. Also, the customer service pretty much sucks in Argentina. And things like buying and returning things that don't work in Argentina is a hassle compared to the USA. All my friends that move to the USA from abroad (especially South America) are amazed with how easy it is to return stuff here in the USA. You can buy something and if it doesn't work you can easily return it to the store. Some places as much as several months after you purchased it.

In many places, you'll get the sense that they really don't care. For example, internet can go down for days and you'll call in and you don't get the sense that the person on the other end of the phone cares if you ever get service back. My mother in law that lives in Recoleta had her gas go out in her building due to someone reporting a gas smell. It took 8 MONTHS to get it fixed. I had a similar type issue in another apartment I owned and took several months.


Things like this can drive you truly mad. You'd never have a situation like this in a first world country with no gas or hot water for months upon months.


In first world countries you have organizations like Better Business Bureau that helps you resolve disputes. Even if Argentina says they have some agency, they really don't work well. Also, no real working judicial system or small claims court type set up like we have in the USA.


I'm NOT trying to compare the USA or other countries with Argentina because they are worlds apart. I just mention it as it's one thing that many people that don't know how it is there will drive themselves crazy if they don't go into retirement there in Argentina knowing a bit about things there.

Argentina is a wonderful country and overall I think I enjoy it more than the USA, especially for retirement. I think the healthcare system is FAR better in Argentina vs. the USA.

Yes customer service is terrible here. Still, we had good luck with consumer defense agency taking our claim against a boiler supplier. They did two days of labor to install 6 radiators and test the piping system previously installed, in preparation for install of boiler. One month later the boiler arrived it was wrong model and they still tried to convince us to take. When the correct model arrived we filed a complaint. In the end we did not pay for any of the labor or the installed hardware. Still, it was a headache to find a new installer.

It is always good to remind any business who is failing to meet commitments of this agency. Much more than what I expect from the BBB in US. https://www.argentina.gob.ar/economia/comercio/defensadelconsumidor

 

[SantiBouns]

Yes customer service is terrible here. Still, we had good luck with consumer defense agency taking our claim against a boiler supplier. They did two days of labor to install 6 radiators and test the piping system previously installed, in preparation for install of boiler. One month later the boiler arrived it was wrong model and they still tried to convince us to take. When the correct model arrived we filed a complaint. In the end we did not pay for any of the labor or the installed hardware. Still, it was a headache to find a new installer.

It is always good to remind any business who is failing to meet commitments of this agency. Much more than what I expect from the BBB in US. https://www.argentina.gob.ar/economia/comercio/defensadelconsumidor

(1) The BBB is not a government agency or a part of the judicial branch. They do not have the authority to force a business to resolve consumer complaints. This means that a business can ignore a BBB complaint. (2) The small claims court is a special court where disputes are resolved quickly and inexpensively. Hands down my choice would be #2.

 

[earlyretirement]

(1) The BBB is not a government agency or a part of the judicial branch. They do not have the authority to force a business to resolve consumer complaints. This means that a business can ignore a BBB complaint. (2) The small claims court is a special court where disputes are resolved quickly and inexpensively. Hands down my choice would be #2.

When I mentioned the BBB I didn't mention it to mean that it's an official governmental agency. I just meant that generally in the USA there are outlets to revolve disputes. While the BBB complaint doesn't guarantee resolution, generally companies do feel some pressure when there are complaints especially listed online.


I've found that most companies/people in Argentina, generally don't care as much. Many have a "screw you I will make as much as I can today and not worry about tomorrow" vs. a path forward to do a lot of long term mutually beneficial path.


I've seen that time and time again with various companies and people. Even companies or people that I've had good luck with for many years, I'll notice that they too sometimes will eventually "exit scam" someone. Where they don't care about their reputation and will screw over a client and take money.

That's the annoying thing about Argentina that I've found that happens there far more than in a first world country.