Legal Crime sensation and real crime! opinion

[MarksIa]

I have seen a lot of post about it but I want more to discuss an article that I have read recently, i don't totally agree with what is been said in there but mostly I agree and I think that is happening a lot in this city and even in this forum.
I have seen people posting thinks that don't mach at all with the city I see or any of my friends does, or any of my friends and expats that don't use this forum see neither, just to clarify I have lived here for almost 8 years already and my friends to, some of them not so much and few of them are locals, they are the most paranoid mainly but still don't see the city as the hell people is posting lately, almost all of us live in the palermo, recoleta, belgrano and caballito so maybe that is why we feel safe in this city, when I read this forum not all but there are some comment that I feel as exaggerations (maybe they are not), anyway that why I would like to know what you think about this article, no need to read all of it with the first half will be enough for the topic.

http://www.argentinaindependent.com/currentaffairs/analysis/fear-and-loathing-in-buenos-aires/

Please don't start fights just be polite and give your honest opinion, try to be as objective as possible and respect the opinion of the other people.

Thanks

 

[IgnaMe]

Mark, having read other posts from you on this forum, I have a feeling this isn't going to be much of a debate.

Anyway, here's my take on the reported numbers related to crime. I have not lived in or extensively visited other major cities in South America so I can't speak for them but in Buenos Aires, the police department is as untrustworthy, either in perception or reality, as a guy wielding a knife threatening to kill you unless you give him all you got on you and even more. So its no wonder that reported crime is less than other countries mentioned in the article.

People here think that if you report crime then you must a) be out of your mind b) have your head up your ass c) love inviting trouble or d) all of the above. Now I'm married to an Argentine whose family (who otherwise sing praises of Argentina and voted for Cristina, which might be weird to some here since they live in Palermo and Recoleta...the so called RICH areas) say that the insecurity feels worse than 2001. Yes that's right, not like 2001 but worse than that. And again, this is perception. I go to a church that is largely Argentine whose pastor just yesterday gave a sermon on how insecure the city had become. Worse than he ever remembered it to be. Everyone at church, people who live in all different places of the city included ones mentioned by you and Almagro, agreed.

A lot of it has to do with perception. But perceptions change when every other person you know or meet has been a victim of some sort of crime. And especially when those crimes seem to be getting more and more violent every passing year.

You may think everyone here who says the crime is bad is just bloating the problem up to be something it isn't. Well, that is your perception. Just like that, others percieve, especially those that have lived through an experience related to crime, that the city is going down the drain when it comes to safety.

 

[MarksIa]

Mark, having read other posts from you on this forum, I have a feeling this isn't going to be much of a debate.

Anyway, here's my take on the reported numbers related to crime. I have not lived in or extensively visited other major cities in South America so I can't speak for them but in Buenos Aires, the police department is as untrustworthy, either in perception or reality, as a guy wielding a knife threatening to kill you unless you give him all you got on you and even more. So its no wonder that reported crime is less than other countries mentioned in the article.

People here think that if you report crime then you must a) be out of your mind b) have your head up your ass c) love inviting trouble or d) all of the above. Now I'm married to an Argentine whose family (who otherwise sing praises of Argentina and voted for Cristina, which might be weird to some here since they live in Palermo and Recoleta...the so called RICH areas) say that the insecurity feels worse than 2001. Yes that's right, not like 2001 but worse than that. And again, this is perception. I go to a church that is largely Argentine whose pastor just yesterday gave a sermon on how insecure the city had become. Worse than he ever remembered it to be. Everyone at church, people who live in all different places of the city included ones mentioned by you and Almagro, agreed.

A lot of it has to do with perception. But perceptions change when every other person you know or meet has been a victim of some sort of crime. And especially when those crimes seem to be getting more and more violent every passing year.

You may think everyone here who says the crime is bad is just bloating the problem up to be something it isn't. Well, that is your perception. Just like that, others percieve, especially those that have lived through an experience related to crime, that the city is going down the drain when it comes to safety.

Good opinion, but then it make me wonder in normal crime is true i don't think people report that much, but i don't think people has ever report crimes that much anyway, but murder crimes don't depend on reports, doesn’t matter if someone report it or not, well i don't think anyone will not report a murder, but even if there is no murder report is still count as a murder for stadistics purpose, so murder numbers we can know that are accurate at least.
So why if the feeling is that crimes are getting more violent in the reality there are less murders? that is one of the things that make me wonder of this sensation. Don't mistake I feel that the crime is getting worst but then my only way to feel this is what i read in the newspaper as i haven't had problems yet so how can I say if this is perception or reality. Anyway is good to read your opinion put some light in some things for me, police here is really bad.

 

[IgnaMe]

Good opinion, but then it make me wonder in normal crime is true i don't think people report that much, but i don't think people has ever report crimes that much anyway, but murder crimes don't depend on reports, doesn’t matter if someone report it or not, well i don't think anyone will not report a murder, but even if there is no murder report is still count as a murder for stadistics purpose, so murder numbers we can know that are accurate at least.
So why if the feeling is that crimes are getting more violent in the reality there are less murders? that is one of the things that make me wonder of this sensation. Don't mistake I feel that the crime is getting worst but then my only way to feel this is what i read in the newspaper as i haven't had problems yet so how can I say if this is perception or reality. Anyway is good to read your opinion put some light in some things for me, police here is really bad.

Okay, most of the people who are worried about crime are not necessarily worried that the moment they step out the door someone will slash their throat and send them to whatever heaven they believe in. Most of the people are worried about getting robbed, especially at gun point. Which, in reality, happens to be a more damaging crime to the person that its committed against because if you're murdered, you know, you can't remember or do crap about it. But if you're held at gunpoint, then you are traumatized and have to live with that for the rest of your life.

Now I'm not belittling the seriousness of murders here. All I'm saying is, if you've been held at gunpoint, sometimes on multiple occassions, then that scars you. These are people that this never used to happen to before. They are not tourists, they are Argentines who don't flash their jewelry or iPhones in public. But they have been held at gunpoint because robbers are getting bolder by the month.

The perception that crime is getting bad has nothing to do with the statistics on murder. The perception that crime is getting bad has everything to do with having to experience being robbed and then knowing that it can happen again and again (especially when it has happened again and again).

As for whether the police here is bad or not. I can't comment on that. I have not personally had any experience, good or bad, with the police. But the perception of people is that the police here is, at times, worse than the robbers. I'm sure that perception too is based in reality one way or another.

 

[MarksIa]

Okay, most of the people who are worried about crime are not necessarily worried that the moment they step out the door someone will slash their throat and send them to whatever heaven they believe in. Most of the people are worried about getting robbed, especially at gun point. Which, in reality, happens to be a more damaging crime to the person that its committed against because if you're murdered, you know, you can't remember or do crap about it. But if you're held at gunpoint, then you are traumatized and have to live with that for the rest of your life.

Now I'm not belittling the seriousness of murders here. All I'm saying is, if you've been held at gunpoint, sometimes on multiple occassions, then that scars you. These are people that this never used to happen to before. They are not tourists, they are Argentines who don't flash their jewelry or iPhones in public. But they have been held at gunpoint because robbers are getting bolder by the month.

The perception that crime is getting bad has nothing to do with the statistics on murder. The perception that crime is getting bad has everything to do with having to experience being robbed and then knowing that it can happen again and again (especially when it has happened again and again).

As for whether the police here is bad or not. I can't comment on that. I have not personally had any experience, good or bad, with the police. But the perception of people is that the police here is, at times, worse than the robbers. I'm sure that perception too is based in reality one way or another.

Well quite true that people once dead is dead but you are forgeting the family and friends of that person that die will still feel the extreme pain that produce a murder, worst than any other crime.
One thing why you thing that sensation of insecurity is related to real insecurity? yes it have a correlation but is more correlated to what the media show than of what happen to the people one know, i read what you write but the countrys where people fear more the insecurity are not nesesarily the ones that are more insecure in the reality, media have a big role on the feeling don't you agree?

 

[IgnaMe]

Well quite true that people once dead is dead but you are forgeting the family and friends of that person that die will still feel the extreme pain that produce a murder, worst than any other crime.
One thing why you thing that sensation of insecurity is related to real insecurity? yes it have a correlation but is more correlated to what the media show than of what happen to the people one know, i read what you write but the countrys where people fear more the insecurity are not nesesarily the ones that are more insecure in the reality, media have a big role on the feeling don't you agree?

I am not forgetting the family and friends and that is why I specifically said that "I am not belittling murder" a comment most readers here seem to ignore.

What I was saying was that PERSONALLY to people, those that go through, say, robberies at gun point remember that more than the people who are murdered. Because the murdered can't remember anything. I'm not being mean or anything, its just a fact.

Let me give you an example. A few soldiers that have seen violence in wars suffer from PTSD. Because they have seen what they've seen and can't handle it well. Whereas the family members of soldiers who have been murdered in war are not likely to suffer from PTSD. Its about the kind of experience people go through. And that is what changes or affects what kind of perceptions people will have.

If its still not clear to you and others what I am saying with this, then I'm clearly not doing a good job at explaining my point and I rest my case.

 

[IgnaMe]

What I am telling you is what I hear when I talk to people here. Argentines and foreigners alike. I don't get it from the news media. Now I am sure the people I talk to take a lot of what they consider information from the news media. But the people that have been robbed talk from personal experience.

But again, like I have been saying, it all depends on your perception. If you percieve that BsAs is a safe city then you will try to dump any and every story that warns of Buenos Aires being a dangerous city as a lie or media hype. Even personal stories of robberies and violence will, to you, sound like a one off thing...something that must have happened to the victim because of something stupid they did (yeah, I have heard that plenty of times here). Even if you are a victim of crime yourself, you will turn around and justify that. People do that. Its how you percieve things.

Now, if your perception of Buenos Aires is that it is a dangerous city, then you will no doubt listen to people's stories when they tell you they were robbed or whatever. You will also listen to the news media and make your decisions on what kind of city Buenos Aires is based on that.

 

[Mart]

I think nico's point is that your odds of getting randomly shot are probably a lot lower than being a victim of a targeted robbery. Which unfortunately seems not uncommon here. So in the devil's choice, probably better to take your chances of being a victim of random shootings than live in a society where you need to worry seriously about being a targeted victim.

 

[earlyretirement]

I think nico's point is that your odds of getting randomly shot are probably a lot lower than being a victim of a targeted robbery. Which unfortunately seems not uncommon here. So in the devil's choice, probably better to take your chances of being a victim of random shootings than live in a society where you need to worry seriously about being a targeted victim.

Anyone that really tries to play off that your chances of randomly getting shot on the street in a major city in the USA are likely is being totally sensationalistic.

Maybe if you are in some very sketchy area but in nice areas of most major metropolitan areas of the USA, your chances of getting shot are TOTALLY slim to NONE.

The USA for the most part is totally safe, especially in nice areas. Of course every city has their bad parts or maybe sketchy areas where people sell drugs, etc. But take a comparable area like Recoleta or Palermo and look at the true amount of muggings there and compare it to another major city in the USA and it's like night and day.

Your chances of being mugged or especially shot in the USA are so very remote. I'll give you that your chances of getting shot in Buenos Aires are very very low since not too many carry handguns but the chances of getting mugged are so much higher in Buenos Aires.

The vast majority of the crime in Buenos Aires is not reported at all to the police for reasons Citygirl correctly mentioned. They are worthless there. So you can't even go by reported statistics.

I think anyone that tries to claim crime hasn't gotten worse in Buenos Aires over the years is totally deluded. Most locals I know had something happen to them or someone in their family.

 

[InesBorges]

And I think anyone that tries to claim Buenos Aires as anywhere near the worst city in the world is quite deluded, or merely hasn't experienced many cities in the world. There are places where you have to live in walled compounds, often with a security guard 24/7 at your gate. And where car jackings are quite common so even in your car there's no safety. BA isn't even close to that.

And yes, the majority of the US is much safer, but let's talk about cities (since BA is the issue, not Argentina all over), and while in the "dangerous" part of BA you're likely to get robbed, there are parts of some cities in the US where you're just as likely to be killed as well as robbed. And raped if you're a woman. I'm sorry, but there are locations in the US where you would not catch me living in a million years over any place in BA, and this coming from someone who's lived in some pretty dangerous places in the world over the years. No war zones as yet though.

 

[earlyretirement]

And I think anyone that tries to claim Buenos Aires as anywhere near the worst city in the world is quite deluded, or merely hasn't experienced many cities in the world. There are places where you have to live in walled compounds, often with a security guard 24/7 at your gate. And where car jackings are quite common so even in your car there's no safety. BA isn't even close to that.

And yes, the majority of the US is much safer, but let's talk about cities (since BA is the issue, not Argentina all over), and while in the "dangerous" part of BA you're likely to get robbed, there are parts of some cities in the US where you're just as likely to be killed as well as robbed. And raped if you're a woman. I'm sorry, but there are locations in the US where you would not catch me living in a million years over any place in BA, and this coming from someone who's lived in some pretty dangerous places in the world over the years. No war zones as yet though.

Absolutely I'd totally agree with this statement. Buenos Aires is far from the worst cities in the world when it comes to crime. Much of South America is much worse. Or Africa or the Middle East as well as other places.

It's certainly not the worst either. I happen to really love the city and enjoy it tremendously but have to call it like it is.

 

[IgnaMe]

Absolutely I'd totally agree with this statement. Buenos Aires is far from the worst cities in the world when it comes to crime. Much of South America is much worse. Or Africa or the Middle East as well as other places.

It's certainly not the worst either. I happen to really love the city and enjoy it tremendously but have to call it like it is.

I agree with your assessment of Buenos Aires.

Its surprising that people automatically assume that if someone criticizes for Buenos Aires for having a little too much crime, then they must be comparing it with other cities and assuming that its the worst.

Buenos Aires is not the worst city in the world but then again, we are not concerned with Lagos or some other craphole. We are living in Buenos Aires and it doesn't matter whether there are worse cities than Buenos Aires out there. What matters is that we live here and the crime is getting worse here. Period.

As for the Middle East. I don't know what cities you're referring to but Dubai and Riyadh (pre 1995) were pretty safe compared to Buenos Aires. But then again, safety there means compromising on a lot of other freedoms and for that I am thankful that I left those cities and that now I'm in Buenos Aires.

Like you said, the fact remains that crime in Buenos Aires is worse, when it comes to muggings and robberies, as compared to major cities in the US (and I'd venture on to say, in other developed countries). And that is that.

 

[earlyretirement]

I totally agree with you nicoenarg. Sometimes it's as if this board has an "us vs. them" attitude. I remember I posted back in 2010 and I stopped reading/posting to the board for a long time because I'd post something that someone might not have liked and the post either took forever to get edited or sometimes even deleted.

I also remember a few years ago posts by some people saying things were getting worse and saying how destructive CFK was for Argentina and people defending her so vigorously. Well, those people seem to have disappeared or at least now I'm sure reality was setting in for them.

I moved down to Buenos Aires shortly after the last crash and I can tell you that definitely things feel worse. More of my friends experience muggings now vs. then.

I also agree with your point about not caring how other places are or are not more dangerous. It's Buenos Aires (or Argentina) that I'm spending time in so that's all that matters. I don't care what crime may be like in another place.

But I still laugh at those that try to paint the USA as this dangerous place where there is lots of crime. And I'd say if I had a friend that witnessed 3 murders in the USA, I'd tell them they are hanging out in the wrong parts of town because that just isn't common.

I've been to 45 States in the USA and I can accurately tell you that at no time have I ever felt threatened.

Buenos Aires (and Argentina in general) is a wonderful place and none of us is trying to argue with that. The only thing people are saying is muggings and robberies are very high compared to other World Capital cities as Nico mentioned.

 

[AronJust]

Anyone that really tries to play off that your chances of randomly getting shot on the street in a major city in the USA are likely is being totally sensationalistic.

Maybe if you are in some very sketchy area but in nice areas of most major metropolitan areas of the USA, your chances of getting shot are TOTALLY slim to NONE.

The USA for the most part is totally safe, especially in nice areas. Of course every city has their bad parts or maybe sketchy areas where people sell drugs, etc. But take a comparable area like Recoleta or Palermo and look at the true amount of muggings there and compare it to another major city in the USA and it's like night and day.

Your chances of being mugged or especially shot in the USA are so very remote. I'll give you that your chances of getting shot in Buenos Aires are very very low since not too many carry handguns but the chances of getting mugged are so much higher in Buenos Aires.

The vast majority of the crime in Buenos Aires is not reported at all to the police for reasons Citygirl correctly mentioned. They are worthless there. So you can't even go by reported statistics.

I think anyone that tries to claim crime hasn't gotten worse in Buenos Aires over the years is totally deluded. Most locals I know had something happen to them or someone in their family.

Are you from the US? Aren't you more likely to be mugged in Philly, Baltimore, San Francisco, LA, Detroit, Chicago, Houston, etc. than in Buenos Aires?

 

[earlyretirement]

Are you from the US? Aren't you more likely to be mugged in Philly, Baltimore, San Francisco, LA, Detroit, Chicago, Houston, etc. than in Buenos Aires?

Yes, I'm from the USA but lived in Argentina many years. NO, I don't believe that in comparable areas in those cities your chances of being mugged are higher.

Remember you can NOT go by statistics you see published in the paper in Buenos Aires. The big difference is in the USA, almost EVERY single person that gets mugged reports it. Without question. So the statistics are accurate.

In Buenos Aires the statistics are NOT accurate. Maybe 5 out of 100 people actually report the crime. If that. In Buenos Aires, I'm not hanging out in sketchy areas, just as when I go to Chicago, Baltimore, San Francisco, Houston, etc. do I hang out in sketchy areas.

I don't think it's a good idea in either places to talk about odds of getting shot because the risks of that in either country I think is very remote. But if you are talking about muggings.....your chances are much higher in Buenos Aires when you account for reality.

You can't go by statistics in Argentina. Just about ANY # you see the government put out is tainted and not true. You can only go by reality.

 

[earlyretirement]

Crime in the USA has decreased over the past decade for the most part. But crime in Argentina has increased.

Again, remember that the vast majority of robberies in Buenos Aires are NOT reported.

http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/Argentina/United-States/Crime

This is fairly old data I think from 2006 but even taking in account the data is old and that very few people actually report robberies and also that crime since 2006 has decreased in the USA and it has increased in Argentina and you'll see on this chart that back in 2006 Argentina still was ranked higher in robberies than the USA per capita.

It's worse now.

And Aron, I was including active war zones in the Middle East. Honestly, I don't know much about the Middle East as it's one of the few places I haven't been to. I know for the most part in non war zone countries, it's supposed to be fairly safe due to the harsh penalties.... but I have several friends and clients that have had problems in Egypt, Yemen and a few other countries.

 

[IgnaMe]

Crime in the USA has decreased over the past decade for the most part. But crime in Argentina has increased.

Again, remember that the vast majority of robberies in Buenos Aires are NOT reported.

http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/Argentina/United-States/Crime

This is fairly old data I think from 2006 but even taking in account the data is old and that very few people actually report robberies and also that crime since 2006 has decreased in the USA and it has increased in Argentina and you'll see on this chart that back in 2006 Argentina still was ranked higher in robberies than the USA per capita.

It's worse now.

And demokritos, I was including active war zones in the Middle East. Honestly, I don't know much about the Middle East as it's one of the few places I haven't been to. I know for the most part in non war zone countries, it's supposed to be fairly safe due to the harsh penalties.... but I have several friends and clients that have had problems in Egypt, Yemen and a few other countries.

The only places safe and liveable in the Middle East are the 5 (out of 6, you've got to be an idiot to want to live in Saudi Arabia) GCC countries. UAE, Qatar, Oman, Bahrain, and Kuwait. But there are a lot of restrictions and a lot of encroachment on personal freedoms in those countries and eventually, if you care about personal freedom, the safety against crime is not worth giving up your freedoms for.

The rest of the Middle East is a hellhole that I wouldn't wanna be found in even by accident.

If we're talking about freedoms then compared to the Middle East, Buenos Aires is heavenly!

 

[earlyretirement]

The only places safe and liveable in the Middle East are the 5 (out of 6, you've got to be an idiot to want to live in Saudi Arabia) GCC countries. UAE, Qatar, Oman, Bahrain, and Kuwait. But there are a lot of restrictions and a lot of encroachment on personal freedoms in those countries and eventually, if you care about personal freedom, the safety against crime is not worth giving up your freedoms for.

The rest of the Middle East is a hellhole that I wouldn't wanna be found in even by accident.

If we're talking about freedoms then compared to the Middle East, Buenos Aires is heavenly!

Yeah, Igna I've just never had any desire to go there. I have several friends that live over there due to work. I remember a few years ago one of my friends went to go work in Yemen. He worked for an oil company and they paid him a small fortune (I think like 3 X his normal annual salary) plus they paid for his mortgage while he lived there.

He was so miserable. He said that he had to stay on a compound, locals didn't like foreigners and it was a miserable experience.

I only compare the quality of life of Buenos Aires to the quality of life of other places I spend significant amounts of time which is the USA.

As you mentioned, I don't care what crime is like in Ghana or anywhere else. I only care how it is where I primarily live which is the USA and Argentina.

 

[Chesse]

When talking to many people, what becomes obvious to most of us is that crime is rampant and that almost no one bothers to report most crimes.

Out of twelve crimes that were perpetuated on my direct family (I'm not even talking about friends and acquaintances) the only one that was ever reported was when my older sister-in-law was robbed at gunpoint and they took her entire purse (with her documents, cellphone and 1200 pesos). The ONLY reason she reported the crime was because she lost both her DNI and her Paraguayan CDI and needed a police report to show that they were stolen.

One of two events that I know of that were reported, among my acquaintances, was the cop I know who was brutally stabbed and throat slashed - but he didn't report it himself as he was almost dead when the ambulance and cops came.

People don't report crimes here - there's no reason to. The cops typically don't do one single thing except fill out a report.

Another crime I haven't written about was a home break in of a friend of my older sister-in-law. She reported this one as well. The night of their graduation from cooking school, my sister-in-law's friend was entering her parent's house in Belgrano (where she lives) when she was attacked from behind by two guys. Her parents weren't home. They beat her (didn't rape her) and threatened to kill her when she couldn't give them the combination to her parent's safe. They were in the house with her for an hour, took various items, left her tied to a chair in the kitchen for three hours until her folks got back.

This happened a bit over a year ago. She's still in therapy, terrified to leave her house. I'd actually forgotten about her as I'd only met her a couple of times and haven't seen her since the event.

Either I and most of the people I know (and at least many of the people who are on this website, it seems) live in statistical bubbles, or people who know more than a couple of people and don't know ANYONE who has not even been robbed, not even a pickpocket, are living in a statistical bubble.

Statistical flukes are amazing, eh?

 

[earlyretirement]

When talking to many people, what becomes obvious to most of us is that crime is rampant and that almost no one bothers to report most crimes.

Out of twelve crimes that were perpetuated on my direct family (I'm not even talking about friends and acquaintances) the only one that was ever reported was when my older sister-in-law was robbed at gunpoint and they took her entire purse (with her documents, cellphone and 1200 pesos). The ONLY reason she reported the crime was because she lost both her DNI and her Paraguayan CDI and needed a police report to show that they were stolen.

One of two events that I know of that were reported, among my acquaintances, was the cop I know who was brutally stabbed and throat slashed - but he didn't report it himself as he was almost dead when the ambulance and cops came.

People don't report crimes here - there's no reason to. The cops typically don't do one single thing except fill out a report.

Another crime I haven't written about was a home break in of a friend of my older sister-in-law. She reported this one as well. The night of their graduation from cooking school, my sister-in-law's friend was entering her parent's house in Belgrano (where she lives) when she was attacked from behind by two guys. Her parents weren't home. They beat her (didn't rape her) and threatened to kill her when she couldn't give them the combination to her parent's safe. They were in the house with her for an hour, took various items, left her tied to a chair in the kitchen for three hours until her folks got back.

This happened a bit over a year ago. She's still in therapy, terrified to leave her house. I'd actually forgotten about her as I'd only met her a couple of times and haven't seen her since the event.

Either I and most of the people I know (and at least many of the people who are on this website, it seems) live in statistical bubbles, or people who know more than a couple of people and don't know ANYONE who has not even been robbed, not even a pickpocket, are living in a statistical bubble.

Statistical flukes are amazing, eh?

That's exactly right Chesse. I have two friends that are police officers that work in police stations and both have told me that they even are told to discourage people from filling out reports as there isn't anything they can do.

The locals don't typically report anything or fill out a report unless they are forced into it because they lost a DNI, their cellphone got stolen and the phone company is requiring a police report, etc. But most people simply don't.

Bomber, my estimate is only that. An estimate. But I can assure you my estimate is much better than the official statistics the government puts out.

You might have lived in Buenos Aires for a year. I lived there for almost a decade. My kids were born there, I still have family that lives there.

I'm not trying to paint Buenos Aires as a super dangerous place because I don't think that is the case. I think the main point people are making is crime is definitely on the uptrend there and I think we can all agree almost none of the actual people getting robbed/mugged are reporting it. And even then, the statistics of how many robberies there in Argentina are quite bad. So imagine the true #.