Newcomer "Insecurity is just a perception"

[SaraNow]

These are the results of a world-wide Gallup poll asking people if they felt safe going out after dark:

-- 61% of Argentines are afraid to go out at night
-- The worldwide average is 36%.
-- Only in 31 of the 105 surveyed countries were people more afraid to go out after dark than in Argentina.

But cheer up: according to government officials, crime is not a reality but just a "feeling", a "perception": No hay inseguridad, solo hay una sensacion de inseguridad.

The same government officials have assured me that Santa Claus WILL be coming down my chimney December 24th. Having total trust in the government's official information, I've had the chimney swept in anticipation for his arrival.

http://www.lanacion.com.ar/nota.asp?nota_id=1320463

 

[bwyonsea]

As a criminal lawyer I can tell you that there was never such a lack of work as nowadays, so it is rotten fish.
I agree that in this contry the "security issue" is a way to make politics that the right uses too much.
As a milonguero I go out every single night, I have just scared of the rain.
Regards

 

[earlyretirement]

I've been to every country in South America and travel quite often. Buenos Aires is still relatively "safe" compared to many other countries in Latin America, however I can tell you that crime has definitely gotten worse over the past few years.

Fortunately violent crimes are still relatively low here but petty crime has skyrocketed here.

Also, there are a lot of serious crime that is never reported to the police as the locals simply don't trust them. A good friend of mine this year had his daughter kidnapped. Granted, he is an extremely wealthy guy so he is more at risk but imagine your daughter getting kidnapped with the threat of cutting off each finger and then killing her if you don't pay a 500,000 peso ransom. Things like that happen all the time and never reported.

Also, a few weeks ago while our good friend (a Portena) was driving around in Palermo with her child in the back seat in a baby seat.... a thief on a motorcycle broke her window at a stop light and stole her purse. Things like that are becoming more common.

I don't think anyone can successfully argue that crime isn't increasing here because it is.

Still, I do agree that locals exaggerate the crime. I never feel threatened here or get the feeling of having to look over my shoulder like when I'm in Rio. Also, Argentines that moved abroad tend to exaggerate the crime more than anyone. However, definitely I can see the street crime increasing. Several of my employees have gotten robbed this year.

 

[SaraNow]

My next door neighbor was held up at a gunpoint at ten in the evening by two men who tried to force her to let them into the house. She started screaming, the neighbor on the other side went out on the sidewalk to see what was going on, the neighbor across the street leant out of the window, and the assailants got into a car and fled.

This happened in "safe" San Isidro, with a private security guard in a booth in the corner.

I've become one of that 61% of Argentines who don't feel safe going out at night. I don't drive alone to and from downtown parties anymore, but take a remise and have the driver wait until I'm inside my gate.

 

[earlyretirement]

Actually Sara the crime levels in San Isidro is higher than in the city. You couldn't pay me enough to live out there in the boonies. All those private security guards are in on the con. I know many people that live in nice communities out there and they told me that the security guards are actually the ones that call their thief friends when they know the owners are on vacation.

I still feel safe in the city even at night. I think that it's safer in these highrises and buildings in Recoleta and Palermo vs. being out in San Isidro. I know several people out there that got their houses broken into out there. Some multiple times.

 

[PhilipDM]

I get this all the time from my argentine friends. They all seem to think its much less safe here than I ever seem to feel. I walk around past 3 in the morning. Ive been stuck taking the first train from Ciudadela after wandering out of a party in ramos in the early morning hours.

I know the risk but I dont feel like its that unsafe compared to other places ive been.

Also this maybe neither here nor there but I always feel less safe in recoleta and san telmo than I do in my ´unsafe´ barrio. It might have something to do with the fact that most the people who feel like robbing someone are probably hanging out in the ´safe´ barrios rather than here where there is, on average, a whole lot less to rob.

 

[earlyretirement]

I get this all the time from my argentine friends. They all seem to think its much less safe here than I ever seem to feel. I walk around past 3 in the morning. Ive been stuck taking the first train from Ciudadela after wandering out of a party in ramos in the early morning hours.

I know the risk but I dont feel like its that unsafe compared to other places ive been.

Also this maybe neither here nor there but I always feel less safe in recoleta and san telmo than I do in my ´unsafe´ barrio. It might have something to do with the fact that most the people who feel like robbing someone are probably hanging out in the ´safe´ barrios rather than here where there is, on average, a whole lot less to rob.

Phillip,

I agree with you that many locals I think ..believe it's more dangerous than us Expats believe it is. I've lived in Recoleta 7 years and I've never once felt unsafe here. I don't care what time it is I've never felt unsafe walking home alone even if it's late. Granted now that I'm married and have kids I don't hang out too late like when I was a bachelor but still.....I find Recoleta to be perfectly safe.

But even here muggings go down. In fact, I'd say sometimes shop keepers and restaurant/hotel workers are probably in on it. I had one client that was having brunch in the Alvear Palace Hotel and immediately after leaving one day he had his Rolex stolen right outside the hotel.

 

[StarLucias]

Phillip,

I agree with you that many locals I think ..believe it's more dangerous than us Expats believe it is. I've lived in Recoleta 7 years and I've never once felt unsafe here. I don't care what time it is I've never felt unsafe walking home alone even if it's late. Granted now that I'm married and have kids I don't hang out too late like when I was a bachelor but still.....I find Recoleta to be perfectly safe.

But even here muggings go down. In fact, I'd say sometimes shop keepers and restaurant/hotel workers are probably in on it. I had one client that was having brunch in the Alvear Palace Hotel and immediately after leaving one day he had his Rolex stolen right outside the hotel.

No offense to your client, but if you walk around BA flashing a Rolex, you should pretty much expect to get mugged.

 

[SaraNow]

Perhaps we locals feel differently because BA used to be far safer just five years ago, and many of us don't know enough about other cities to draw comparisons.

Personally, I can only compare BA with Washington. There, in a suburban home half an hour's drive from the White House and deep in a 3.4 acre wooded lot, we had no iron bars, no guards, no alarm, and in fact did not even bother locking the front door. While we were in BA the house was left vacant with the cars in the driveway for months at a time, and nothing ever happened.

The only intruders we saw were a group of deer who spent nights at the bottom of our yard.

In San Isidro, I must remember to look both ways before pulling into my driveway, keep doors locked at all times, and pay for the alarm and the private security guard in the corner. Which, by the way, is a totally useless guy who happily sleeps the night away in his booth.

 

[earlyretirement]

No offense to your client, but if you walk around BA flashing a Rolex, you should pretty much expect to get mugged.

I totally agree. It doesn't make sense wearing a Rolex in BA. Many people have gotten mugged of theirs. Thieves here love them. The first thing I did before moving here is I sold mine....

 

[PhilipDM]

Phillip,

I agree with you that many locals I think ..believe it's more dangerous than us Expats believe it is. I've lived in Recoleta 7 years and I've never once felt unsafe here. I don't care what time it is I've never felt unsafe walking home alone even if it's late. Granted now that I'm married and have kids I don't hang out too late like when I was a bachelor but still.....I find Recoleta to be perfectly safe.

But even here muggings go down. In fact, I'd say sometimes shop keepers and restaurant/hotel workers are probably in on it. I had one client that was having brunch in the Alvear Palace Hotel and immediately after leaving one day he had his Rolex stolen right outside the hotel.

No I´m certainly not saying that its safe or that muggings dont happen. I pretty much agree with you on all points.

 

[RichardES]

I'll post again later, but somehow the whole system is wicked :

- Very low classes : Insecurity = no access to clean water, very poor access to education, very poor access to health services, in case of an abortion = finish on a backroom table with an improvised medic, racism (los negros), denegation from the other "as being an human being" (worst than hating someone = trying to close the eyes about someone exists), controls if you go to the centro (it's not "their" place), suffering from other lower class people (because in a villa it's not heterogenous at all, there are MANY different groups of people),...

- basic middle class (a characteristic of Argentina is its vast range of middle class people. Here I'm talking about the working class making 4000/6000$ for a single, 10/12000$ for a family) : Full payment of the various taxes (not enough money to pay for a "tax optimisation" + working in blanco = pay all of your taxes). They suffer from insecurity and it's a very bad one as well because if you rob the car from such a family (e.g.) it will be really difficult to get a new one quickly + usual ripoffs + usual scams + usual steals,...

- upper middle class (making 15/25000$ for a single, 30/50000$ for a family) : things get easy but they are scared. They have enough means to open bank accounts in Uruguay, disminish their taxes quite substantially (not realizing they are screwing the educational system btw). They eventually buy a flat in Punta del Este or for the most wealthy (and clever), they bought a house 15 years ago in Jose Ignacio. They will complain that here and there they get robbed by pibes chorros (usually just a necklace, sometimes it turns out bloody) but they'll feel as victims. Furthermore they are damn scared by the leftist politic here (how odd people who have nothing do vote for the left).

- Top classes : Miami and so on... (useless to develop I guess)

- Police : About 3 or 4 years ago, a basic police guy was starting with an income of 1200/1500$. Today (not sure), it might be around 2500/3000$. Those basic cops come from the lower classes. How do you live decently with that ?



The whole system is kind of wicked if you ask me (I'll post again later).

 

[earlyretirement]

Actually I don't really have a problem with these squatters if they are on PUBLIC land but where I have a problem is when they are on PRIVATE property.

I have a friend that bought a building in San Telmo a few years ago. He went through the process of legally purchasing the property. It was FILLED to the brim with Peruvians and other poor living here. He didn't think it would be so difficult getting them out.

Boy was he wrong! These people hired lawyers to fight for their right to ILLEGALLY stay in his property. And because the laws here don't protect the owners he had to go through that process. I forget how long it took but I think it took 2 years to get them out. Even when the judge ordered them out they refused to leave. Finally one morning the police came in riot gear and had to forceably remove them. It was quite a scene from what I hear.

My friend tried paying them to leave. Apparently in these kind of cases there is a leader that charges everyone to stay. And apparently he was making so much money charging them that he refused. In the end, they finally got them out after 2+ years.

I hope some of you aren't trying to advocate or suggest that somehow these people illegally trespassing on private property someone have a right to be there.....

 

[Mart]

I thin the thing I find so fascinating (at the risk of sounding horribly insensitive) is having a villa right next to a hugely expensive area. It just doesn't compute to me. It's like picturing a slum being built in Central Park right next to the Met.

I don't actually know what the answer is. Ideally government services (not that I agree with someone's assertion earlier that it is the government's RESPONSIBILITY to provide a house for everyone that is here). But some type of social welfare network and services to assist people in getting on their feet.

I am hardly saying that I think most villa residents are living the life of luxury. In fact, I've watched some horribly depressing news clips these past few days - children playing in highly contaminated water, streets filled with refuse, exposed wires and dangerous areas. I'm not saying they're cheating the system and living a life of luxury.

But at what point is it too much? Villa 31 has bars. Pizza Places. Kioskos. Addresses. How many people live there? At what point do you say it has to be integrated into the rest of the city?

 

[SaraNow]

Sorry, I should have said the villas pay no PROPERTY taxes. Nothing and no one is exempt from the IVA.

Does anyone have any knowledge of life in the villas? I mean, through someone you know personally who lives, has lived, or works in one of them?

It would be interesting to pool what everyone knows from personal contacts - just simple anecdotal information, stripped of prejudices, individual opinions or political agendas.

As for the villa's electric usage, take a slow drive along the Arturo Illia highway, right past Villa 31, and you'll see the split AC units sticking out of many buildings. Maybe they don't have FIVE units per family, but many homes have one.

They also have other electric appliances - last month in TV there was a Paraguayan woman being interviewed about power peaks in the villa. She complained that they had ruined her flat screen TV, her stereo, and her son's playstation, and was concerned about her new DVD player.

 

[FiatAlo]

Maybe I am crazy but, where do you expect people to live? And can you blame them for wanting electricity even if they can't pay? I mean many of these people can't afford property taxes or rent. Does that mean they shouldn't sleep somewhere? There seems to be a lack of adequate shelters and places for people to get some aid.

I understand that it is frustrating when crime spills out of villas or when you see someone enjoying things you do not have when they may not have obtained those things in an honest way. ( personally I don't have a big flat screen TV). However, I think we have to understand the desperation of some of these situations. People deserve basic things. I wish there were more services available to people from the villas.

I agree. In the U.S these areas are much more off the beaten path usually. It brings different issues when slums are as visible as they are in Argentina. On one side I do commend the people living in villas for organizing enough to have functioning shops and restaurants and such. Just because they are poor doesn't mean they can't have an economy that functions. In fact this is quite enterprising and I bet many people from these areas would be stellar employees at companies.
If only there was something that could empower these businesses to continue and grow in a more legitimate way. There is no easy solution. I just wanted to stick up little for these people. It is easy to blame insecurity solely on the poor when things get tough and the conversation seemed to be veering in that direction. It is so much more complicated.

 

[earlyretirement]

That's correct about them stealing the electricity. I don't have much experience in this other than the case of the building my friend bought. But they had tapped in illegally to get electricity and I think they were stealing some from their neighbors as well.

There was no running water. It was really disgusting as I went in after to see it and saw buckets in certain areas. And it was amazing how they rigged up wooden beams to make another floor. In this old building in San Telmo it had really high ceilings and to make more room, they added in wooden beams into the wall to make another floor.

Again, I don't think there is an easy answer as far as them occupying public land but I doubt anyone on this forum would like it if they had a property they legally owned occupied by these people and they wouldn't leave. It wouldn't be fun no matter how some are portraying the plight of these people...

 

[KarinKen]

Early retirement wrote:
"That's correct about them stealing the electricity. I don't have much experience in this other than the case of the building my friend bought. But they had tapped in illegally to get electricity and I think they were stealing some from their neighbors as well."

Bottom Line: Stealing, lying, and cheating are all occupations of the poor that they learn from the rich. As long as you have these kinds of extreme inequalities among socioeconomic classes you will continue to see petty thefts (albeit it utilities or pocketbooks) and "shafting" by one individual towards another.

I have never seen such a society (like in Argentina) in which so many individuals base their INTELLIGENCE on how well they can "con" or deceive another person. Where does this come from? What are its origins? One can not simply blame the government because essentially even the government is a reflection of the values of the society in an alleged "democracy."

I work for the airlines and fly every week to Buenos Aires. The planes are just full of Argentines sporting their status labled "Gap" shirts, Nike tennis shoes, and other "name brand" First World consumer goods. The message is "Look at me....I have something you don't have". If these are the values being transmitted it should be no surprise that others will be looking to "steal" from you what you have. And you can't say that people just need to "work hard" so that they can attain the same quality of life because the fact is many people are working very hard and not receiving much at all in return. Whether you are "stealing" electricity in a villa (lower class) or underreporting income (white collar crime), the bottom line is that there is a lack of "civilized" checks and balances within the society and the byproduct of that is "uncivilized" behaviors.

 

[earlyretirement]

Early retirement wrote:
"That's correct about them stealing the electricity. I don't have much experience in this other than the case of the building my friend bought. But they had tapped in illegally to get electricity and I think they were stealing some from their neighbors as well."

Bottom Line: Stealing, lying, and cheating are all occupations of the poor that they learn from the rich. As long as you have these kinds of extreme inequalities among socioeconomic classes you will continue to see petty thefts (albeit it utilities or pocketbooks) and "shafting" by one individual towards another.

I have never seen such a society (like in Argentina) in which so many individuals base their INTELLIGENCE on how well they can "con" or deceive another person. Where does this come from? What are its origins? One can not simply blame the government because essentially even the government is a reflection of the values of the society in an alleged "democracy."

I work for the airlines and fly every week to Buenos Aires. The planes are just full of Argentines sporting their status labled "Gap" shirts, Nike tennis shoes, and other "name brand" First World consumer goods. The message is "Look at me....I have something you don't have". If these are the values being transmitted it should be no surprise that others will be looking to "steal" from you what you have. And you can't say that people just need to "work hard" so that they can attain the same quality of life because the fact is many people are working very hard and not receiving much at all in return. Whether you are "stealing" electricity in a villa (lower class) or underreporting income (white collar crime), the bottom line is that there is a lack of "civilized" checks and balances within the society and the byproduct of that is "uncivilized" behaviors.

Actually after 7 years living here I'd have to totally agree with you on this part of your post. I've done business all over the world successfully and I've never seen anything like what I see in Argentina on a DAILY basis. It's not just the government either. It's almost ingrained in society here. It's like local Juan Doe thinks that he lies/cheats/steals less than Jane Doe so that makes him an OK person.

Where I come from and how I was raised is it's not ok to cheat/lie/steal from someone else. Apparently the Portenos, for the most part don't follow that creed. I've never in all my life seen that kind of normalized, institutionalized behavior in people. I can tell you some stories. I've seen brothers conning their own brothers, families cheating their own families here.

Perhaps that is the worst thing about Argentina. Just the fact that people think it's ok to act this way is a big problem. And responses like "the poor learned it from the rich" don't make things correct either. That's flawed thinking, IMHO.

Perhaps this is the reason why Argentina continually ranks as one of the most corrupt countries in the world each and every year by Transparency International.

 

[SaraNow]

The "vivo", the "piola", the guy who cuts in line, who cheats an gets away with it, is admired in Argentina. It's always been this way. People are in awe of those smart enough to cheat without being caught. They may know it is not right to do such things, but many consider cheating "cute".

A case in point is Maradona: he's far more admired by the goal he scored by cheating, using a hand (La Mano de Dios goal) than for the many goals he scored legitimately.

There's a famous Vittorio Gassman movie titled "Il Sorpasso". It's old, but worth watching. The hero is a typical "avivado", Argentine style.