GeoPolitics
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I'm going to go out on a limb here, and suggest that not all Argentines think and act alike...
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earlyretirement
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Definitely I don't think you can lump in all Argentines into the same category. There are wonderful, generous, gracious people living in this country. At the same time, I'll still stick with my opinion that this type of problem is institutionalized in Argentina.
And even if they aren't conning someone else it's just facts. Look at how many companies are working TOTALLY in "white". It's very low here. And to be honest, I can't blame them completely because the government gives no incentive to honest companies/individuals doing things the right way. Their reward is more taxes and even more enforcement against them vs. even trying to enforce others.
To give you a good example. My father in law started a new business here. He's doing ok but I suggested to him my personal opinion is that he NOT work in "black" and he report that income. I told him now that he is living in Argentina (he is not originally from here but received his DNI) he has an obligation to support Argentina, pay taxes, etc.
So in order to be "white" they make the process so complicated waiting in line at the police, filling out forms, going to AFIP, waiting in lines, telling him he needs more forms, etc. Believe it or not, yesterday he went to AFIP as I told him that I wouldn't pay him unless he gets "white". I own a few companies and he provides some services for one of them. So I told him he needed to get "white" and invoice my corporation.
So he is at AFIP yesterday and turns out he will have to pay quite a bit of his taxes ( % that he wasn't paying before as he just started). And the own AFIP agent asks him, "but why in the world are you declaring your income??? You could easily just work in black and not pay any taxes..." or "declare less than you are actually making so you pay less, " the AFIP worker at the counter told him.
This is a totally true story. So this gives you a bit of the mentality of the locals. Even locals that work at AFIP! This kind of thing totally blows my mind.
He was so frustrated at the process but I still told him that he can't invoice my company unless he gets "white". So, he has more forms to fill out, more lines to wait in and more red tape...all so he can get "white" and pay taxes....
And even if they aren't conning someone else it's just facts. Look at how many companies are working TOTALLY in "white". It's very low here. And to be honest, I can't blame them completely because the government gives no incentive to honest companies/individuals doing things the right way. Their reward is more taxes and even more enforcement against them vs. even trying to enforce others.
To give you a good example. My father in law started a new business here. He's doing ok but I suggested to him my personal opinion is that he NOT work in "black" and he report that income. I told him now that he is living in Argentina (he is not originally from here but received his DNI) he has an obligation to support Argentina, pay taxes, etc.
So in order to be "white" they make the process so complicated waiting in line at the police, filling out forms, going to AFIP, waiting in lines, telling him he needs more forms, etc. Believe it or not, yesterday he went to AFIP as I told him that I wouldn't pay him unless he gets "white". I own a few companies and he provides some services for one of them. So I told him he needed to get "white" and invoice my corporation.
So he is at AFIP yesterday and turns out he will have to pay quite a bit of his taxes ( % that he wasn't paying before as he just started). And the own AFIP agent asks him, "but why in the world are you declaring your income??? You could easily just work in black and not pay any taxes..." or "declare less than you are actually making so you pay less, " the AFIP worker at the counter told him.
This is a totally true story. So this gives you a bit of the mentality of the locals. Even locals that work at AFIP! This kind of thing totally blows my mind.
He was so frustrated at the process but I still told him that he can't invoice my company unless he gets "white". So, he has more forms to fill out, more lines to wait in and more red tape...all so he can get "white" and pay taxes....
The biggest problem that Argentina has is building a society based on trust and one that respects others in a dignified manner . I have noticed the last years the falling down of respect between others and the glorification of immoral behaviours. This is common through the society if the role models are anything to go by . The shows on Television with the images of Ricardo Font ,Mirtha Legrand , Moira Casan and others are not for me positive role models.
Cheating , lying and plain exaggerating are more common here that is no doubt . I actually find this the most difficult part of my existence here is this endemic lying that is accepted by all as commendable.
Less words and more positive actions are important . There is too much bullshit that complicates daily life here and I admire more and more efficient people and attitudes.
Cheating , lying and plain exaggerating are more common here that is no doubt . I actually find this the most difficult part of my existence here is this endemic lying that is accepted by all as commendable.
Less words and more positive actions are important . There is too much bullshit that complicates daily life here and I admire more and more efficient people and attitudes.
earlyretirement
Moderator
I really applaud your post. It's so true. For me as well, that is the toughest thing about living here. You'd think after 7 years i'd get used to it but from being raised not to lie/cheat/steal it's really tough dealing with this here and I'd never get accustomed to it no matter how long I lived here. I'm as frustrated today as I was many years ago when I first moved here. Maybe even more so today.
It's also the reason I will move my family out of Argentina next year. I really can't see wanting to raise kids in an environment like this. Because kids are raised in an environment like this...they see their parents, friends of the family, relatives, parents of their friends, etc. all acting this way and they somehow think it's "normal" but they don't realize that it's NOT like this outside in civilized countries. I know dozens and dozens of Argentines that were raised here and then moved out of Argentina to go work in the USA, Europe or Asia and they comment to me that they realized when they left just how corrupt Argentina is and how the system here is just flawed with the cons/games/lies.
I guess if I was from another Latin American country plagued with corruption, inefficiency with a non-functional banking system then it wouldn't seem as bad. But my wife is from South America and she has never seen what goes on here back in her home country on a systematic/fundamental basis and day to day level. I'm not sure what it is here in Argentina but definitely it's worse here vs. other countries in Latin America.
Back before I moved here I'd do million dollar deals with a handshake and the other party wouldn't even try to cheat me in the USA and certain countries in Europe. Here you can have a written contract and they will still try to cheat you or steal from you because they know the judicial system doesn't function here. Even if you are correct and have a case...the case can wade through the murky waters of the judicial system for 2-4 years or longer.
And I'm not saying there aren't bad people or con artists in the USA. Because there are. Just look at Bernie Madoff. But I always joke Argentina is like having tens of thousands of "Mini Bernie Madoffs" operating on a low level small scale everyday life and having to deal with them all the time.
I guess if you are just an ExPat that isn't working here or doing serious business here then it's not as frustrating or as big of a deal but my local friends all complain as well so I don't think it's limited to just foreigners. If you are retired and don't have to deal with businesses here day in and day out it might not be as big of a deal. But if you do serious business in the country on a large scale you will want to pull your hair out.
That's one of the things I'll miss the least when I move out of Argentina.
It's also the reason I will move my family out of Argentina next year. I really can't see wanting to raise kids in an environment like this. Because kids are raised in an environment like this...they see their parents, friends of the family, relatives, parents of their friends, etc. all acting this way and they somehow think it's "normal" but they don't realize that it's NOT like this outside in civilized countries. I know dozens and dozens of Argentines that were raised here and then moved out of Argentina to go work in the USA, Europe or Asia and they comment to me that they realized when they left just how corrupt Argentina is and how the system here is just flawed with the cons/games/lies.
I guess if I was from another Latin American country plagued with corruption, inefficiency with a non-functional banking system then it wouldn't seem as bad. But my wife is from South America and she has never seen what goes on here back in her home country on a systematic/fundamental basis and day to day level. I'm not sure what it is here in Argentina but definitely it's worse here vs. other countries in Latin America.
Back before I moved here I'd do million dollar deals with a handshake and the other party wouldn't even try to cheat me in the USA and certain countries in Europe. Here you can have a written contract and they will still try to cheat you or steal from you because they know the judicial system doesn't function here. Even if you are correct and have a case...the case can wade through the murky waters of the judicial system for 2-4 years or longer.
And I'm not saying there aren't bad people or con artists in the USA. Because there are. Just look at Bernie Madoff. But I always joke Argentina is like having tens of thousands of "Mini Bernie Madoffs" operating on a low level small scale everyday life and having to deal with them all the time.
I guess if you are just an ExPat that isn't working here or doing serious business here then it's not as frustrating or as big of a deal but my local friends all complain as well so I don't think it's limited to just foreigners. If you are retired and don't have to deal with businesses here day in and day out it might not be as big of a deal. But if you do serious business in the country on a large scale you will want to pull your hair out.
That's one of the things I'll miss the least when I move out of Argentina.
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