Legal My Divorce From Argentina

[ThomasTo]

My Colombian boyfriend (with Argentine DNI) was quaking in his boots when he applied for the U.S. tourist visa. Young, old, rich, poor, they're are always treated like drug mules no matter which country they're trying to go to. Hell, even I got thrown in a room to wait for a full body scan leaving Colombia because I was a young woman traveling alone with a ton of stamps showing years of travel between Argentina, Uruguay and Brazil, and I told security I had been traveling around with my boyfriend. (That was the wrong thing to say, even if it was the truth). It's just the way it is. Sad but true. He had been in Argentina working legally for three years when he applied for the tourist visa, with the same job he'd come to Argentina for. He had all the bank statements and everything, and got the visa, because he was able to prove that he'd go back. His Colombian friends who had visited the U.S. before advised him to not even mention who he was visiting or why, lest they think he was trying to stay in the country. I think he told them he wanted to visit NASA or something.

I am sad to say that I'm not in the least bit surprised that your wife was not granted a tourist visa. I am a little surprised that you thought she'd get it, actually. Because no, marriage does not make a difference. She had nothing to show that she was tied to living in Argentina. If anything, the fact that you were supporting her and paying rent and her sister's tuition might have just made her look like an opportunist. And earlier you said that she did everything 100% legal to immigrate to and have a life in Argentina. Well, if she was working en negro, that's not entirely true. Because now, unfortunately, she doesn't have the years of work records to prove her case. Her only roots in Argentina are financed by you, her American husband. I don't think it matters whether you plan to stay in Argentina or not, since they have told you that the two of you being married makes no difference in her application. I wonder if showing your financial status did more harm than good, I guess is my point. As unfair and unkind as it may be, the two of you are going to get a lot of skepticism thrown at you from the officials due to the fact that she's young, poor and a Paraguayan immigrant, and you're older, considerably wealthier and American. If you were a government official who'd seen it all, what would you think? It does not look good on paper, and that's all they care about. They think she's gonna drop you like a hot potato as soon as she lands, to put it bluntly. It would not be the first time in the history of U.S. immigration, that's for sure. I do not say this to be unkind; I say it to stress that you should not view your marriage as an asset to her case here. They seem to have made that pretty clear.

I sincerely hope that you are able to resolve things somehow, so that she can travel to the U.S. and meet your family. Get going with her monotributista stuff, stat. Good luck!

I think you're right on the money. Marriage doesn't mean anything with tourist visas and can work against you, as said here. Marriage would come into the picture only if she were to apply for residency - that only being the case if you two were to make the decision to move to the States. I have heard of 2 people in the last 5 years who were rejected visas: a roommate from Ecuador who had a job in the States with Princess cruises and all the documentation about his new job but was denied and a young Argentine student who wanted to go for vacation. Both were in their early 20s. I know a lot of people who choose the "less is more" route when it comes to talking at the interview. They have all the paperwork, but they don't go into a long drawn-out speech as to why they want to go to the States (often brought on by nervousness). Just answered the questions asked. I know it must have been very upsetting, and I'm sure I would have also gone to great lengths if my husband had been in the same situation. Let us know how it goes the next time around...

 

[earlyretirement]

I think you're right on the money. Marriage doesn't mean anything with tourist visas and can work against you, as said here. Marriage would come into the picture only if she were to apply for residency - that only being the case if you two were to make the decision to move to the States. I have heard of 2 people in the last 5 years who were rejected visas: a roommate from Ecuador who had a job in the States with Princess cruises and all the documentation about his new job but was denied and a young Argentine student who wanted to go for vacation. Both were in their early 20s. I know a lot of people who choose the "less is more" route when it comes to talking at the interview. They have all the paperwork, but they don't go into a long drawn-out speech as to why they want to go to the States (often brought on by nervousness). Just answered the questions asked. I know it must have been very upsetting, and I'm sure I would have also gone to great lengths if my husband had been in the same situation. Let us know how it goes the next time around...

Yeah, but how many people do you have that are US citizens that have been married 5 YEARS and still had their spouse rejected for a tourist visa??? I one only one know.

I agree with recently married people maybe having a problem but never heard of someone married so long being rejected for a tourist visa. Heck, I've met even just engaged people getting a tourist visa for their significant other even with one case where the guy had no assets and was working mostly in black.

 

[CarliNeces]

Yeah, but how many people do you have that are US citizens that have been married 5 YEARS and still had their spouse rejected for a tourist visa??? I one only one know.

I agree with recently married people maybe having a problem but never heard of someone married so long being rejected for a tourist visa. Heck, I've met even just engaged people getting a tourist visa for their significant other even with one case where the guy had no assets and was working mostly in black.

I agree with 99% of your comments on this forum. I find us quiet in sync with our views. But pardon me, I beg to disagree here with this view point.

People from 3rd world countries face lot of backlash at embassies for visas irrespective of their financial status, marital status ( to a first world country person) etc. I have spent lot of time living in third world countries in Asia, Africa and South AMerica....and more often than not the visa application is rejected. Only lucky few get visas. Its almost like a lottery.

 

[earlyretirement]

I agree with 99% of your comments on this forum. I find us quiet in sync with our views. But pardon me, I beg to disagree here with this view point.

People from 3rd world countries face lot of backlash at embassies for visas irrespective of their financial status, marital status ( to a first world country person) etc. I have spent lot of time living in third world countries in Asia, Africa and South AMerica....and more often than not the visa application is rejected. Only lucky few get visas. Its almost like a lottery.

Yes, I agree with your posts as well. I'm well aware that most people from poor third world countries are often rejected for tourist visas to the USA.

But do you actually know anyone that has been married several years to someone and been rejected for a tourist visa? I guess that is the point I'm getting at.

Does anyone know people in this situation where they have been married for many years and been rejected for a simple tourist visa?

 

[PhilipDM]

Yes, I agree with your posts as well. I'm well aware that most people from poor third world countries are often rejected for tourist visas to the USA.

But do you actually know anyone that has been married several years to someone and been rejected for a tourist visa? I guess that is the point I'm getting at.

Does anyone know people in this situation where they have been married for many years and been rejected for a simple tourist visa?

I don't know anyone other than Chesse either but it still doesn't surprise me. Marriage just proves commitment to your spouse and not even all that much by itself. What El Chesse's wife needs to prove is commitment to Argentina which she doesn't really have. The majority of her family is in paraguay, so thats out. She can't prove that she's worked in argentina because she's in negro; I doubt though, that having her as a monotribusta paying taxes will make any difference. In the end her work is something she could have done in paraguay for less and something she could do in the USA for more.

My advice would be for her to get her name on the title of a piece of property and maybe enroll in a degree program at one of the local universities. That'd be a bit of a start to prove ties to Argentina.

 

[earlyretirement]

I don't know anyone other than Chesse either but it still doesn't surprise me. Marriage just proves commitment to your spouse and not even all that much by itself. What El Chesse's wife needs to prove is commitment to Argentina which she doesn't really have. The majority of her family is in paraguay, so thats out. She can't prove that she's worked in argentina because she's in negro; I doubt though, that having her as a monotribusta paying taxes will make any difference. In the end her work is something she could have done in paraguay for less and something she could do in the USA for more.

My advice would be for her to get her name on the title of a piece of property and maybe enroll in a degree program at one of the local universities. That'd be a bit of a start to prove ties to Argentina.

OK..that's the point I'm getting at. I'm not denying that most people from developing or third world countries will typically get rejected for a tourist visa if they have no ties to the country.

But there is a big difference between being married for 5 years to someone (even considering they don't have many ties on paper) vs. someone that isn't married or engaged.

I mean let's be honest. Any reasonable person is going to assume after 5 years of being married, it's most likely very clear this wasn't some quickie "marriage of convenience" to get a green card.

That's the point I'm making.

Maybe it's a situation of ElQueso not showing enough documentation or something but like I mentioned, I personally know several people that were in a similar situation of not having any ties to the country yet still getting a tourist visa to visit the USA.

However there was a lot of documentation, bank statements, proof of income from the spouse, and photographs, etc.

 

[Mart]

As far as the suggestion of starting a company to provide maid service - I would be able to answer as soon as pick myself up off the floor. I can think of no worse venture than that. So your business idea is based on having a large amount of employees who would be more than excited to sue you and having a company that would have to shoulder the legal responsibility in case said maid steals from the houses where he or she is working. How many lawsuits do you think you'll have to settle the first year?

As far as real estate - yes, that market is booming right now. And magazines in general are doing so well. Who exactly is going to pay to advertise in that do you think?

PS - I don't believe prenups have any validity in Argentina.

 

[earlyretirement]

As far as the suggestion of starting a company to provide maid service - I would be able to answer as soon as pick myself up off the floor. I can think of no worse venture than that. So your business idea is based on having a large amount of employees who would be more than excited to sue you and having a company that would have to shoulder the legal responsibility in case said maid steals from the houses where he or she is working. How many lawsuits do you think you'll have to settle the first year?

As far as real estate - yes, that market is booming right now. And magazines in general are doing so well. Who exactly is going to pay to advertise in that do you think?

PS - I don't believe prenups have any validity in Argentina.

EXACTLY!! LOL. I really laughed when I read about someone thinking a temporary maid service would be a profitable venture. Most people don't want any strangers in their apartment. Especially these days when crime is worse than in past years.

Anyone that has lived in Argentina for any sort of time (several years) knows it's VERY difficult to find a trustworthy, hardworking and honest maid for the long-term. And NO, I'm not talking about a maid that will pretend to work hard the first few weeks then lazy out on you.

It's not too easy to trust maids to come in your house. The only people I've hired were maids that were referred to me by someone I personally know. In 8 years I had 2 maids. I had NO desire to have any strangers in my house.

Maids are also typically uneducated and will try to sue you if you fire them. I've always put my maids in white and even paid the legitimate taxes for them. I also paid them very well.

But in a temp agency type situation, there are a lot of potential problems including them potentially stealing from the people's places they are cleaning, turnover, undependable, potential lawsuits, etc. I can't see that as a good business.

And for people that didn't get citygirl's excellent sense of humor..... the real estate market is TOTALLY dead! No real sales volume. Sales have fallen off a cliff with all the restrictions by AFIP and probably will become worse with more restrictions probably in the pipeline.

Even tourism is on a decline with Brazil's economy having slowed down and not as much tourism from the USA and Europe.

I honestly can't think of any legitimate businesses operated totally in white that are too viable in Argentina right now. There may be a few but they are going to probably have higher risk. So it just becomes a risk/reward scenario.

Glossy magazines?? LOL. Magazine and newspapers are on a steady decline with all the electronic formats out there now (online, Ipad, etc).

As far as prenuptial agreements, they aren't valid in Argentina. The only assets that are protected are assets that you acquired before the wedding. For example, any real estate or land that you own before you get married, you can't lose in a divorce. But any real estate or assets you acquired during the marriage, your spouse will be entitled to.

They are very old school in Argentina. It's even hard to write your kids out of your last will and testament in Argentina. I've seen scenarios where a wealthy parent passed away and they didn't want to leave anything to their lazy no good kids but no way they could get written out.

 

[CarliNeces]

What about travel agency kind of business. Will it work? Thinking of bringing rich loaded tourists from China and India to South America. They are the ones who have the money and are in vast no. Will it work or it has pitfalls? Comments

Are there any rich people in South america who will like a travel agency to take them to Asia?

 

[earlyretirement]

What about travel agency kind of business. Will it work? Thinking of bringing rich loaded tourists from China and India to South America. They are the ones who have the money and are in vast no. Will it work or it has pitfalls? Comments

Are there any rich people in South america who will like a travel agency to take them to Asia?

Nah, I wouldn't say there would be too much money in this. I guess it just depends what you consider worth your time. I don't see any true potential to make any significant money from a travel agency business.

If you did do something like this, it wouldn't make sense to base it in Buenos Aires if possible. Probably the main thing will be your website and maybe people to answer the phone but I'd think if people from India and China are your main target you will need people that need to speak Indian and Chinese so probably just hiring someone in those countries if you can pay a lower wage.

The salaries in Buenos Aires aren't high but you have to factor on the mandatory taxes, retirement benefits, etc. of employees. But I consider the real hassle factor the potential liability of having employees. It's really horrible.

The margins with things associated with travel agency are fairly low so you have to have TONS of volume to make any significant money. I just don't think the potential to make any serious money is there when you factor in everything.

I also don't see India and China as large markets for potential tourists for Argentina.

Also, with the tremendous amount of online websites out there, I just don't see travel agencies as the way to go. They are almost like a dinosaur now and tons of travel sites out there and tons of information out there.

People that really want to set up a legitimate business in Argentina don't realize how difficult it is. When setting up an SRL or SA in Argentina you have to have a local on your Board of Directors along with lots of record keeping and keeping your books in order.

It's not like the USA where anyone can set up a corporation in 15 minutes.

 

[Mart]

Carli - the only issue I see with that is there is no direct flight to China that I know of right now. On my last trip, I had either the option of routing through S. Africa or through the US. Going there, I left on wed and arrived on Friday.

It's not impossible but that's a long flight for people, I'm not sure how big your market would be for that kind of tourism.

ETA - I will also say that when I attended the conference, there were a bunch of people from Brasil, Argentina, etc there. And they were HORRIFIED about the food. Seriously, all of them basically refused to eat anything they were served and were complaining the entire time. So that would probably be an issue to think about in terms of enticing tourists.

 

[CarliNeces]

Carli - the only issue I see with that is there is no direct flight to China that I know of right now. On my last trip, I had either the option of routing through S. Africa or through the US. Going there, I left on wed and arrived on Friday.

It's not impossible but that's a long flight for people, I'm not sure how big your market would be for that kind of tourism.

ETA - I will also say that when I attended the conference, there were a bunch of people from Brasil, Argentina, etc there. And they were HORRIFIED about the food. Seriously, all of them basically refused to eat anything they were served and were complaining the entire time. So that would probably be an issue to think about in terms of enticing tourists.

Actually I already have friends who are running travel agency in China and India. They have asked me to help them enter this market. hence my main work will be this side. But then do you guys think i will get sued for something?

 

[earlyretirement]

Actually I already have friends who are running travel agency in China and India. They have asked me to help them enter this market. hence my main work will be this side. But then do you guys think i will get sued for something?

Again, I just don't see China and India as target rich environments for tourists to Argentina. It's a LONG haul and I don't think the mainstream population in these countries has a big desire to visit Argentina.

As far as actual lawsuits they are rare besides actual employees trying to do bogus lawsuits. But since the judicial system doesn't work in Argentina, you don't see a lot of frivolous lawsuits like in the USA. People know if they try to make some bogus lawsuit it will most likely take 3 years to get in front of a judge.

However, when you have employees it's more complicated. For small companies probably it's not as you can just hire people you know and trust and even then you could have problems.

The problem is that even when employees are in the wrong or terminated for just cause.... they hire some shady attorney, which many work on contingency basis, so the employee doesn't have to pay anything at all upfront.

You can spend significant amounts of money fighting them as you have to get a lawyer. It's a long drawn out process. Sometimes taking YEARS. So in the end, it's almost always better to just settle with the employee even if they are not in the right.

It's a very sickening feeling having to do that.

 

[Dexter]

Again, I just don't see China and India as target rich environments for tourists to Argentina. It's a LONG haul and I don't think the mainstream population in these countries has a big desire to visit Argentina.

As far as actual lawsuits they are rare besides actual employees trying to do bogus lawsuits. But since the judicial system doesn't work in Argentina, you don't see a lot of frivolous lawsuits like in the USA. People know if they try to make some bogus lawsuit it will most likely take 3 years to get in front of a judge.

However, when you have employees it's more complicated. For small companies probably it's not as you can just hire people you know and trust and even then you could have problems.

The problem is that even when employees are in the wrong or terminated for just cause.... they hire some shady attorney, which many work on contingency basis, so the employee doesn't have to pay anything at all upfront.

You can spend significant amounts of money fighting them as you have to get a lawyer. It's a long drawn out process. Sometimes taking YEARS. So in the end, it's almost always better to just settle with the employee even if they are not in the right.

It's a very sickening feeling having to do that.

I don't mean to romper sus huevos (really I don't), but wanted to point out that 'Indian' is not a language. What you probably meant was Hindi, the most common language spoken in India.

 

[earlyretirement]

I don't mean to romper sus huevos (really I don't), but wanted to point out that 'Indian' is not a language. What you probably meant was Hindi, the most common language spoken in India.

Yes. Thanks for the correction. I meant Hindu. Just typing fast and not proofing. Sorry.

 

[Mart]

Again, I just don't see China and India as target rich environments for tourists to Argentina. It's a LONG haul and I don't think the mainstream population in these countries has a big desire to visit Argentina.

As far as actual lawsuits they are rare besides actual employees trying to do bogus lawsuits. But since the judicial system doesn't work in Argentina, you don't see a lot of frivolous lawsuits like in the USA. People know if they try to make some bogus lawsuit it will most likely take 3 years to get in front of a judge.

However, when you have employees it's more complicated. For small companies probably it's not as you can just hire people you know and trust and even then you could have problems.

The problem is that even when employees are in the wrong or terminated for just cause.... they hire some shady attorney, which many work on contingency basis, so the employee doesn't have to pay anything at all upfront.

You can spend significant amounts of money fighting them as you have to get a lawyer. It's a long drawn out process. Sometimes taking YEARS. So in the end, it's almost always better to just settle with the employee even if they are not in the right.

It's a very sickening feeling having to do that.

I actually refused to do it on the 2 times employees tried to sue (in 3 years). All the employees were 100% in white, they had QUIT and then threatened to sue. I think they were shocked when I refused to settle with them, they were 100% expecting it. We went to the initial arbitration and they sat there expecting the offer. I told them they were welcome to move forward with the suit but i had signed employee contracts, proof of payments, certified F/S that matched the payments, email records, proof of electronic entry/exit from the premises, etc, etc, etc.

In both cases, they dropped the lawsuit at the end after realizing I wouldn't cave and just settle to make it go away. And that it would take years to get to court and while there was no guarantee (it's Argentina after all), there was a really good chance they would lose.

Sometimes not settling works here. (In both cases, I went against my lawyer's advice to settle). I refused to do it on principle and it wound up working out.

 

[Frisel]

I actually refused to do it on the 2 times employees tried to sue (in 3 years). All the employees were 100% in white, they had QUIT and then threatened to sue. I think they were shocked when I refused to settle with them, they were 100% expecting it. We went to the initial arbitration and they sat there expecting the offer. I told them they were welcome to move forward with the suit but i had signed employee contracts, proof of payments, certified F/S that matched the payments, email records, proof of electronic entry/exit from the premises, etc, etc, etc.

In both cases, they dropped the lawsuit at the end after realizing I wouldn't cave and just settle to make it go away. And that it would take years to get to court and while there was no guarantee (it's Argentina after all), there was a really good chance they would lose.

Sometimes not settling works here. (In both cases, I went against my lawyer's advice to settle). I refused to do it on principle and it wound up working out.

Yup I think we share views on this. On the advice of our lawyers we did settle some early lawsuits with people asking to be fired so they could be paid, rather than quit. The sums were small, the lawyers advised that this is how things work in Argentina. We then started to see a trend and a poor atmosphere permeate some groups in the company until 1 girl with us 5 years simply refused to do her job. She would turn up every day, do a few hours then say we were asking too much of her and leave and her response to mgmt and HR was "What are you going to do about it? Fire me!"...so we did, without paying and I, point blank and against the advice of our lawyers, refused to pay, as like you citygirl we have always worked en blanco, had all our ts crossed and is dotted re contracts, job descriptions, goals and objectives, performance reviews etc. I felt and still feel that justice has to be done if not for us as owners but for the dedicated professionals who turn up every day and give their all and who wouldnt dream of acting in this way. It is they who we disappoint when we roll over and pay fraudulent suits simply because thats the way things are done here. Her lawsuit is dropped, staff attitude 100% improved and we have changed to new lawyers who share our views...

 

[earlyretirement]

Yup I think we share views on this. On the advice of our lawyers we did settle some early lawsuits with people asking to be fired so they could be paid, rather than quit. The sums were small, the lawyers advised that this is how things work in Argentina. We then started to see a trend and a poor atmosphere permeate some groups in the company until 1 girl with us 5 years simply refused to do her job. She would turn up every day, do a few hours then say we were asking too much of her and leave and her response to mgmt and HR was "What are you going to do about it? Fire me!"...so we did, without paying and I, point blank and against the advice of our lawyers, refused to pay, as like you citygirl we have always worked en blanco, had all our ts crossed and is dotted re contracts, job descriptions, goals and objectives, performance reviews etc. I felt and still feel that justice has to be done if not for us as owners but for the dedicated professionals who turn up every day and give their all and who wouldnt dream of acting in this way. It is they who we disappoint when we roll over and pay fraudulent suits simply because thats the way things are done here. Her lawsuit is dropped, staff attitude 100% improved and we have changed to new lawyers who share our views...

Oh trust me I share Mart's views on not paying. I tried that a few times but it's MUCH different when they are QUITTING and trying to claim it vs. you FIRING them and doing it.

Like both of you, I did everything in white, paid taxes, paid them completely in white. That certainly helps but I've had situations like Frisel where FORMALLY hardworking and trusting employees just show up to work and pretty much do nothing. It's quite clear they want to get fired. And it's not a productive environment with the standoff of them coming to work doing nothing and getting a salary vs. having to fire them and pay them severance.

It's a lose lose situation many times. Either they will come to work and not be productive or you have to fire them and pay a severance. (A big severance if they have been there many years).

Other employees constantly called in sick. The laws are broken where basically if they have a doctor's note they are covered. And let's get real...they all can easily get a fake doctor's note. One time we busted an employee. She had a sick note written by a doctor that turned out to be a plastic surgeon! LOL. We gave her a warning.

And don't even get me started about trying to fire a non-productive staff member that happens to get pregnant.

My advice if you're going to start a legitimate business is try to have as few employees as possible.