Legal Seeking advise on a "touchy topic"

[CarliNeces]

I had a employee ( a overseas student) whom I had hired for part time work at my apartment to assist. Payment was per day basis as and when I needed. The employee was not Argentine and neither am I.

I found the employee stealing from me 2-3 times but i ignored because the amount was small and the work performed was good.

I did inform the employee my predicament and that I know what was stolen.

But the 3rd time, when i caught the employee red -handed - The employee started shouting at top of the voice as if I made a crime by catching the theft. I admit, I also shouted back.

The employee rushed out banging my apartment door very hard and abusing me.

Then after 5 minutes returned ringing my bell for the money owed about 500 pesos. I live in a very high security building, so had to leave for now. Also the fired employee has some of my " not so important" papers to bring back in exchange of the cash owed.

what should be my action? Should I make the employee wait for 6-7 days before I pay up or should I pay up asap.

I don't intend to stop the money. Its pittance for taking any sort of animosity in the city.

But is there any way to make the employee at least regret for the actions?

Of course, was in desperate need of the job and completely broke and did not have work permit! So will not get another work so easily..that is one regret.

ANd was I wrong in reprimanding the employee after catching the theft 2-3 times and blowing up the 3rd time?

I mean, how patient can I be!!

Looking for answers from perspective of other employers in the city especially those who hire part time help.

And also perspective of the would be employees? Is it fair to steal at your employers and then shout at top of your voice when caught red handed!

 

[GerardX]

is this real life?
i don't understand...
why would you pay this person anything now? and why would you let them continue to work for you after you knew they were stealing?

 

[CarliNeces]

Stolen money was small...20-50 pesos x 3 times etc

owed money in pending part time work salary is 500 pesos.

i did not fire cos work performed was excellent. Some times in life, you value the person for the work but then the person starts taking you for granted and makes the same mistake again and again and again, thinking you are completely ignorant.

 

[Britni]

As a business owner I understand "touchy subjects"..like earlyretirement and citygirl we all have horrible tales to tell of employees out to scam the employer...we had an employee come to work for her first day and then not again, disappear and only be contactable something like 2 days later to say she was coming back and had only disappeared as her mother was ill. My dilemma: take back a clearly unstable unscrupulous person or fire her and pay circa 2000 pesos for the pleasure of 1 day's "work"....we fired her of course and we had to pay by law as we work in blanco BUT we made her wait 2 months for the cheque, send a few CDs...waste her time (sadly not her money as CDs are free for the employee) but we made her wait....

Your case is so different. I would never have let him back in the job even if I caught him only stealing a packet of biscuits and wouldn't pay a penny. The bonus you will get from this is the lesson to not value the "what" ie the excellent output of the person but the "how" ie the ethics, values and character that goes with the person producing the work...without that no employee will be a good team worker or success in the long term for you. End of sermon..sorry for preaching ...hope it works out for you!

 

[earlyretirement]

I realize you were trying to be a "nice guy" but Raymond is correct that you will be EATEN alive and you will be ABUSED if you continue to act foolish like you did.

Immediately upon catching someone doing something unethical, you have to cut all ties with that person. You made a HUGE mistake keeping them around if you already caught them stealing. Why you kept them around after you caught them once I don't understand. You know the saying..fool me once shame on you...fool me twice shame on you. I'm not sure what expression they would have for a person that let a person fool them or steal from them 3 times!

I'm not sure why you are asking if you did something wrong reprimanding them??? That seems strange.

The only cases I've seen where people acted so foolishly as in your case was when there was more to the story. For example, I once met a guy that hired a girl and he ended up fooling around with her.....so yeah they were having sex and that clouded his judgement. But he had a similar type of story. I had to almost beat him over the head to get him to fire her!

Who in the heck cares if this person is broke or Buenos Aires is an expensive city. As an employer, that isn't your problem. Especially if they are stealing from you!

You have to assume, if you catch someone stealing from you...it means they have done it several times. You just found out about 2 or 3 times so in all reality they were probably doing it far more often. Thieves are like that.

Look, you already made the serious mistake of keeping them around. Just pay them the 500 pesos owed and be done with them forever! It will be important to make sure you let ALL the security guards know that this person is NOT allowed in the building again.

I'd also take the added step of sending a signed letter to your landlord as well as the property administrator letting them know the name and DNI/Passport # of the person that is NOT allowed in the building.

You could suffer consequences far greater than this 500 pesos. In a town like Buenos Aires, this person could just hire some thug to rob you blind or follow you out of your apartment one day and beat you. Don't dismiss that possibility because I've seen a lot of shady things there.

Don't even think about it...pay what you owe and just end your relationship and never talk to them again. Wish them the best of luck.

 

[MDirtBoy]

As any owner of a business here will tell you, the laws are completely on the side of the employee. We caught an employee stealing - had it on video. Dismissed the employee who then sued. Went to court and showed the video. Decision in favor of the employee because the employee didn't know we had surveillance.

You can figure one month's salary in severance for every year worked at your company, plus the 13th month salary, plus anytime they might have worked that was outside of their regular work hours undocumented, even responding to an email at night. That's double if the employee is pregnant. If you fire a woman and she get's pregnant within (I think) 90 days of dismissal you will owe her double. You have 4 days for this money to hit their account or you are in for more legal problems.

I could go on but you get the point.

Your first mistake was letting the first stealing event go by. I've found it's better to yank the snake out of the hole first and deal with it than to sit around and hope it doesn't come back. You have 90 day's evaluation period at the beginning of an employment. That's your chance. After that, it's really hard.

 

[MDirtBoy]

And, I would agree with some of the other posts. You can't be a bambi here. Be respectful at all times, but hold your line! Otherwise you will get taken advantage of. Use this event as a warning. You have a relatively easy case. A worst case might look like you owe the employee more than your business is worth.

 

[CarliNeces]

I ask because by nature I am a nice guy. The employee is completely broke and is just hanging on by a very thin "thread" in this expensive city. So feel sorry for the employee despite being abused.

Like @ Raymond says " a foolish man"!

But want to teach a small life lesson as well.

My worry is , that instead of me going to police ( I dont intend to)...can the employee go to police and make a complaint against me for not paying salary?

Mind you, this was part time work and nothing in white. All negotiation in talks and payment by cash once in 10-15 days.

 

[earlyretirement]

I ask because by nature I am a nice guy. The employee is completely broke and is just hanging on by a very thin "thread" in this expensive city. So feel sorry for the employee despite being abused.

Like @ Raymond says " a foolish man"!

But want to teach a small life lesson as well.

My worry is , that instead of me going to police ( I dont intend to)...can the employee go to police and make a complaint against me for not paying salary?

Mind you, this was part time work and nothing in white. All negotiation in talks and payment by cash once in 10-15 days.

FORGET about trying to "tech a small life lesson". Do NOT even think like that. You won't teach a scumbag thief like this any lesson at all. Odds are they will go to the next employer and steal from them too.

As I posted in my other thread, just pay them the 500 pesos. It's a small amount (less than $100 US) and be done with it. I've seen people in Buenos Aires "try to teach a life lesson" only to find themselves coincidentally with getting mugged or beaten on the street shortly afterwards, or their apartment broken into.

Just pay the money and try to learn from this lesson and don't try to be such a "nice guy". It's sad to say but you almost have to go into an employment relationship almost thinking that the employee will take advantage of you or steal from you. It's very sad to have to think that way but after almost a decade operating in Buenos Aires with several companies and over 50 employees there I'd say you should follow my advice.

Scum like this will never even admit they did anything wrong. Trust me. I once had an employee I CAUGHT on camera in the act of stealing. It was all on tape!

The really difficult thing was he was a great employee, had worked there for many years, and was from a wealthy family. But he stole just to steal I guess.

Even while we showed him the footage with himself on camera stealing he kept trying to deny it! I mean the proof was right there and there was nothing blocking him. The video was very clear.

By this time, I had already been though enough cases to know that you can NOT beat employees that sue you. I can give you some examples, where I chose to fight employees and spent tens of thousands of dollars on legal bills only to still get defrauded by the court system and corruption. Some things would scare you.

In this example above, I gave the employee 2 choices. I told him he could quit, and immediately send a carta documento and sign a letter saying he was quitting with NO accrual of any severance PLUS pay the $1,000 US that was taken from the video footage. Or option #2 was I'd fire him but if I fired him, I'd have to take the footage to the police station and file a criminal complaint against him and everyone else in the company would know about it.

This guy did the right thing and quit and paid back the $1,000 dollars but he signed a letter saying he was paying it back with the acknowledgement he did NOT take the money. LOL. I mean we had it all on video and the thief was STILL denying it.

And the funny thing is we got a Carta Documento (CD) shortly after that from some scumbag lawyer saying this guy was going to sue us.

I just picked up the phone and told this employee that if he pursued this action, I'd have to go to the police and this would all become public. Needless to say he dropped the lawsuit.

You can't win against these employees. Don't even try. Just pay it and move on.

 

[MiltonHouses]

I ask because by nature I am a nice guy. The employee is completely broke and is just hanging on by a very thin "thread" in this expensive city. So feel sorry for the employee despite being abused.

Like @ Raymond says " a foolish man"!

But want to teach a small life lesson as well.

My worry is , that instead of me going to police ( I dont intend to)...can the employee go to police and make a complaint against me for not paying salary?

Mind you, this was part time work and nothing in white. All negotiation in talks and payment by cash once in 10-15 days.

If you have so much fear why you employing people ? If you trasmit fear and no confidence also it is a losing situation

 

[CarliNeces]

If you have so much fear why you employing people ? If you trasmit fear and no confidence also it is a losing situation

"Fear" is a wrong word.

And If I had "fear", i would have paid immediately when the employee returned after 5 minutes. But I called the guards ( we have 4 at any time in the building) and told them to escort the employee out.

Lets say, my predicament ..is to keep clear of any vigilance, to not to have my name on any records in the city on any issue.

 

[MiltonHouses]

"Fear" is a wrong word.

And If I had "fear", i would have paid immediately when the employee returned after 5 minutes. But I called the guards ( we have 4 at any time in the building) and told them to escort the employee out.

Lets say, my predicament ..is to keep clear of any vigilance, to not to have my name on any records in the city on any issue.

In this city the police will not bother with petty instances even proper assualts they pay little attention!!

 

[earlyretirement]

In this city the police will not bother with petty instances even proper assualts they pay little attention!!

Actually I'd normally agree but this isn't always the case. One time many years ago I had a dispute with a vendor. I paid the vendor funds due but then fired him as I didn't trust him for a few different reasons.

Well, one day he came to my office and he threatened me. He made some mumblings how in a town like Buenos Aires he could easily just hire a thug to rob me, cut off my hand, or break into my place "or worse".

I didn't really fear him but in speaking to my attorney he recommended that I go to the police station and file an official report. I didn't want to as I was very busy and I didn't think it would do any good. But my lawyer reasoned that if he really was thinking about doing something, if the police investigated he would think twice about it.

Nothing ever happened and a few years went by (I think it was 2 years). Imagine my surprise when I get a Carta Documento that said I had to appear before a judge as they were prosecuting this guy!

I guess it's illegal to make some threat like that which really surprised me. I had to go to court personally, I couldn't send my lawyers. I explained to the judge I'd like to drop the case as I didn't want to see anything happen to this guy. I explained that my lawyer explained it was a good idea to file the police report just in case.

The judge told me it was too late to drop the charges. Honestly, I'm not sure if anything ever happened to this guy. Or even if he still lived in Buenos Aires as it was 2 years later. LOL.

But don't always assume nothing will be done. 2 years later I did have to go testify about it...

 

[Fetiches]

Tell him you're going to pay. When he arrives to collect the money break his jaw with a hook, when he drops give him a volley for good measure.

 

[CarliNeces]

Tell him you're going to pay. When he arrives to collect the money break his jaw with a hook, when he drops give him a volley for good measure.

Their seems to be two opposite kind of suggestions.

One, do not worry. Nothing can happen. You are in the driver's seat.

Second, do not make enemies. Pay up and carry on with life. ( Regarding this, even if I pay up , their is no guarantee that the employee will still not try to take "revenge" of me! - For me, being guilty of catching the theft red-handed!)

I know, its up to me for what path to take but really confused with such opposite suggestions.

 

[earlyretirement]

Their seems to be two opposite kind of suggestions.

One, do not worry. Nothing can happen. You are in the driver's seat.

Second, do not make enemies. Pay up and carry on with life. ( Regarding this, even if I pay up , their is no guarantee that the employee will still not try to take "revenge" of me! - For me, being guilty of catching the theft red-handed!)

I know, its up to me for what path to take but really confused with such opposite suggestions.

This should be a non-decision for you. Most of the people that are giving you silly advice like "say you are going to pay and then break their jaw" are newcomers. Most likely they haven't lived in Buenos Aires long or most certainly don't own a company there or never had employees.

This should be very clear to you. Just pay it and move on.

Never forget where you are. Argentina isn't the USA, UK or a first world country. There are some very bad things that can happen there. You never know who this person is friends with. I've known people that had disputes and had shady police officers come to them on the street or even their homes.

Do NOT underestimate the amount of corruption there and stop being so naive or nice. That's the best advice I can give you.

 

[earlyretirement]

Also one of the reasons why I almost always hired either people I knew or people that my employees already knew. I knew it would be more difficult for people to pull shady stuff or try to sue the company when they personally knew or went to school with current employees.

People underestimate what a brutal environment Argentina can be to own a company. If you can make it in Argentina you can make it anywhere.

 

[Fetiches]

Their seems to be two opposite kind of suggestions.

One, do not worry. Nothing can happen. You are in the driver's seat.

Second, do not make enemies. Pay up and carry on with life. ( Regarding this, even if I pay up , their is no guarantee that the employee will still not try to take "revenge" of me! - For me, being guilty of catching the theft red-handed!)

I know, its up to me for what path to take but really confused with such opposite suggestions.

I was trying to make light of your situation.

In all honesty if the guy is such a pain in you ass (with he sounds) just pay him the 500 peso's and be done with it.

It's hardly worth depriving yourself of a decent nights sleep or looking over your shoulder whenever you leave the house for the price of a few beers.

Why would he take revenge if you pay him what he is due?

Where is he from?

You seem very concerned about this situation, but in all honesty it sounds like a non event.

Whenever you fire someone (which I have on numerous occasions) they always spout off with idle threats. The fact is the guy is skint, he is hardly in a position to go hiring vigilantes, he is not from Argentina and he sounds like F#$#%$ A hole.

Guy got caught with his hand in the cookie jar, if it was in my house I would of cut it off the first time.

 

[Carlspmw]

You do not want the police at your place under any circumstance. Police does not work for you, they follow orders of an abstract they can not even grasp themselves. In the meantime you don't want unknown poorly remunerated, armed and discontented employees oogling your goodies and knowing when and where to find you, no sir.

Labor laws always favor the employee. I assist a CPA regularly and we have potential employees take several physical and psychological test previous to any employment contract. These candidates come to and from diverse commercial activities and jobs. Too many to count. It's a small investment that usually proves very usefull. Worth the money compared to the other customers that decide to forfait the test and offer the jobs based on first impressions.

No use banging on Ceviche, trust is in our nature and distrust is learned socially. Or was it the other way around?

 

[CarliNeces]

Ok guys.

Thanks.

I think I have reached a conclusion.

will pay the employee off without any arguments.

Not worth it. And 500 pesos wont make me richer.