Banking transering $ abroad from apt sale

[HernanG]

I'm a little confused now, after so much recent talk about needing to be a resident to have a sane apt sale here I got this response from a bank when I asked them about their services for doing the sale and transferring the $ abroad. Does this sound right?

"Lo ideal en tu caso es que te tome como no residente en el pais. Es la unica manera de poder hacer una transferencia al exterior sin pasar por consulta AFIP
En ese caso solamente la escritura debe decir que estas cobrando en $ aunque te paguen en USS.
Podes firmar la escritura con un domicilio aca, por temas impositivos."

NO RESIDENTES EN EL PAIS.

1) Tienen que abrir una caja de ahorro en pesos
Req: Copia DNI,o pasaporte, Constrancia inscripcion en CUIL o CUIT,o CDI y un servicio a su nombre o certificado de domicilio policial
2) Tiene que presentar copia escritura de venta de la propiedad, sellada y firmada en todas las hojas por escribano interviniente mencionando que estan cobrando en pesos.
3) Presentar titulo de propiedad. Entre la compra y la venta tiene que haber pasado por lo menos un año. Es por el concepto de no residente o extrangero.

Comision para transferencia 2,5 % del monto a transferir.

 

[CreyCruz]

Your best bet is to sell it to someone who can pay you abroad directly cause nobody knows the rules and they change every day. I bought my apartment from an American woman leaving BA and paid her abroad. It was the only way for her to sell the property without problems. I had to wait because she had problems to sell the apartment as a non resident and she had to get her DNI before selling it.

 

[HernanG]

I agree, that would be best - know anyone looking? But really, I don't think I have time to wait for a perfect situation, and anyway I have residency, I have a DNI, I've paid my taxes, the sale price will be way under the "coti" limit of 600,000 pesos... shouldn't I be able to do this legally and transparently? Maybe I'm being naive, especially after 9 yrs here, but surely I am not the first one to do this...

 

[SeeLess]

I agree, that would be best - know anyone looking? But really, I don't think I have time to wait for a perfect situation, and anyway I have residency, I have a DNI, I've paid my taxes, the sale price will be way under the "coti" limit of 600,000 pesos... shouldn't I be able to do this legally and transparently? Maybe I'm being naive, especially after 9 yrs here, but surely I am not the first one to do this...

If you have a valid DNI and a CUIL or CUIT and don't explicitly tell the escribano that you are non-resident and you don't need a COTI, then you should be able to bypass all the drama during the sale. Just don't say that you're non-resident. You'll obviously still have to pay the usual taxes that are involved in the sale (like ITI).

If you will receive US dollars, you can then use a financiera to get the money out for much less than 2.5% (usually around 1%). You hand the cash over to them and they wire you the money to your account abroad from one of their accounts somewhere else in the world.

If you will receive pesos, you have two options. You can go with the escritura to AFIP to ask for permission to change the money you just received into dollars or you can change it in the parallel market at about 4.70. Being that things change all the time, and your situation might make it difficult to get permission to change the pesos if AFIP knows you're no longer a resident, if you're selling in pesos you probably want to make your numbers assuming a value of 4.70 or 4.75 pesos to the dollar.

 

[HernanG]

I am a resident, I've been living here the whole time. I thought it was a bit wierd that the bank said I should do the sale as a non-resident so that I could do the transfer without consulting AFIP. Wouldn't a consultation with AFIP be fine if I were doing everything in white?

And wouldn't the bank automatically change the transfer from pesos into dollars? When I've had $ sent to my us account from Australia there was no questions of "buying" dollars.

 

[RobertoBet]

Your best bet is to sell it to someone who can pay you abroad directly cause nobody knows the rules and they change every day. I bought my apartment from an American woman leaving BA and paid her abroad. It was the only way for her to sell the property without problems. I had to wait because she had problems to sell the apartment as a non resident and she had to get her DNI before selling it.

Can someone (ndcj?) clarify if this is still possible and legal? That is, can I still "legally" purchase a depto via an off-shore/extranjero dollar transfer, without fear of hassles/fees from AFIP when I later sell?

Given the new laws of 31Oct.2011 (regarding purchases of deptos by non-residents), it appears that non-residents CANNOT pay the escritura by transferring dollars from their (extranjero) bank to the extranjero/Uruguayo bank of the seller, and instead must bring their depto-purchase dollars into Argentina via Banco Central or perhaps via a Piano-like casa de cambio? True?

Final question: do these new rules apply only to non-resident buyers, or non-resident sellers, or both? I understand the advantages to obtain residency before selling, but I wonder about advantages/ disadvantages to obtain residency before buying. ndcj you seem to be the real expert here.

Thanks,

 

[HernanG]

Can someone (ndcj?) clarify if this is still possible and legal? That is, can I still "legally" purchase a depto via an off-shore/extranjero dollar transfer, without fear of hassles/fees from AFIP when I later sell?

Given the new laws of 31Oct.2011 (regarding purchases of deptos by non-residents), it appears that non-residents CANNOT pay the escritura by transferring dollars from their (extranjero) bank to the extranjero/Uruguayo bank of the seller, and instead must bring their depto-purchase dollars into Argentina via Banco Central or perhaps via a Piano-like casa de cambio? True?

Final question: do these new rules apply only to non-resident buyers, or non-resident sellers, or both? I understand the advantages to obtain residency before selling, but I wonder about advantages/ disadvantages to obtain residency before buying. ndcj you seem to be the real expert here.

Thanks,

In another post someone else said they verified with an escribano that it was leagal to do an offshore transfer - though maybe they were talking about residents?
http://baexpats.org/expat-life/19878-whats-best-way-transfer-dollars-out.html

And I got my residency two months after buying my apt - and, I brought the money here in cash my self and through a few friends (in under 10,000 increments) so there will be no record of anything going through the central bank so (maybe) I'll be able to answer your other question after I sell.

 

[earlyretirement]

In another post someone else said they verified with an escribano that it was leagal to do an offshore transfer - though maybe they were talking about residents?
http://baexpats.org/expat-life/19878-whats-best-way-transfer-dollars-out.html

And I got my residency two months after buying my apt - and, I brought the money here in cash my self and through a few friends (in under 10,000 increments) so there will be no record of anything going through the central bank so (maybe) I'll be able to answer your other question after I sell.

This isn't correct. After the changes in the law in October, it's NOT legal to buy an apartment paying outside of Argentina. Of course you still could attempt to and I've seen cases where both the buyer and seller agree, but it's "black".

If you're a non-resident, AFIP can and definitely will probably see how you brought in the funds to Argentina for the purchase. Remember you have to apply for a permit to sell if you're a non-resident so it's not wise to do anything in black when buying.

What you did bringing in $10,000 US each trip is legal. But you will have to show proof via your passport and make sure to keep a copy of the passport if you renew it and show the entry stamps and preferably also show the withdrawals of cash from your bank statements.

I doubt AFIP will allow you to say "friends brought in the cash for you".

Previously before October 2011 it was perfectly legal to sell a property and get paid abroad. Heck, it was even all documented on the escritura the account you wired to. But now with this change it's now illegal. Just check with AFIP or any reputable Escribano that really specializes with many transactions.

This was a HORRIBLE change for both residents and non residents alike.

 

[KarinKen]

I am in the middle of a sell right now. I can tell that AFIP wants to know in details how you got the money in to Argentina. If you brought cash yourself, you need to show passports or get a transcription at emigrations. The only white way in is with Banco Nacion. Another thing to think of nowdays is "ganancia". AFIP wants to see all electricity bills for the years you have been an owner. You can get a trancript at Edenor. AFIP will look at the periods when you were out of the country, if any consumation you will be charged for sublettings 20% of an estimated value. If you prefer to fight, your sell will be delayed...for a long long time....

 

[earlyretirement]

I am in the middle of a sell right now. I can tell that AFIP wants to know in details how you got the money in to Argentina. If you brought cash yourself, you need to show passports or get a transcription at emigrations. The only white way in is with Banco Nacion. Another thing to think of nowdays is "ganancia". AFIP wants to see all electricity bills for the years you have been an owner. You can get a trancript at Edenor. AFIP will look at the periods when you were out of the country, if any consumation you will be charged for sublettings 20% of an estimated value. If you prefer to fight, your sell will be delayed...for a long long time....

This is exactly true. Mostly I've seen that AFIP hasn't bothered my friends that bought before 2006. But I think things changed around 2006/2007 where they were much stricter about how funds were coming in.

Also, keep in mind that there are something like 27 AFIP offices around Buenos Aires and some of them are MUCH more difficult than others. Many of them don't even know the laws and some are very strict. And you can't just go to any AFIP office you want. It depends on which one you were assigned to based on where you got your CDI (tax ID #) or where the person that has a power of attorney is assigned to. It's all a bit complicated but just know some are easier than others.

I have a friend that went back and forth all the time to Argentina and the USA. He wired in the funds in "black" but when he went to sell the property he just said each time he brought in $10,000 US each time and there wasn't anything they could do to disprove it. But they did ask to see all the passport stamps so make sure you have that prepared if you will use that as an excuse.

AFIP is a total nightmare. Lately I had a friend that had problems getting a permit to sell. And keep in mind he was up to date on ALL his taxes. He paid his ABL on time, he paid his annual asset taxes on time and he even declared ALL his rentals and paid the income tax on it. He was using a reputable property management company in town that required to pay taxes.

This guy STILL had problems getting the permit. It turns out that two of the months that he owned the property, the utility bills showed usage even though only 1 rental week was declared which was the truth. It could just be the utility company made a mistake but rather than appeal it which would have really slowed things down...he paid the 2,500 pesos so he could close.

VERY few reputable escribanos are going to mess around with doing transactions now allowing the buyer to wire abroad, etc. It's not worth the potential hassles to them now. I know a few escribanos that did it all the time before but now they don't want to deal with them.

Also, the other big problem you have is the issue if you wire abroad is a matter of trust. Assuming you buy a property and you wire abroad to the seller's account in the USA/Europe/etc, are you going to wire the funds first? I'd NEVER wire funds before you signed the title deed because you're saying that you paid the funds in cash in Buenos Aires. And the seller wouldn't want to sign the title deed first because if you didn't pay the deed would say you already paid in cash. HUGE trust issue.

Sure, you can find a third party to "Escrow" it but it becomes much more complicated and involves huge amounts of trust. Also, when you go to sell the property, you still have to keep in mind AFIP WILL ask you how you got the funds into Argentina when you bought it.

All things to think about....

 

[JoeCarlo]

I am in the middle of a sell right now. I can tell that AFIP wants to know in details how you got the money in to Argentina. If you brought cash yourself, you need to show passports or get a transcription at emigrations. The only white way in is with Banco Nacion. Another thing to think of nowdays is "ganancia". AFIP wants to see all electricity bills for the years you have been an owner. You can get a trancript at Edenor. AFIP will look at the periods when you were out of the country, if any consumation you will be charged for sublettings 20% of an estimated value. If you prefer to fight, your sell will be delayed...for a long long time....

What if you're living with someone else? Not exactly renting it out, since no income, but either letting someone stay there to housesit or a gf/bf that shares the place with you and likes to watch tv? Does the government need to know about your bedroom life as well?

 

[earlyretirement]

What if you're living with someone else? Not exactly renting it out, since no income, but either letting someone stay there to housesit or a gf/bf that shares the place with you and likes to watch tv? Does the government need to know about your bedroom life as well?

Just make sure it's the truth and if that is the case you probably will avoid problems. But even then there is no guarantee you won't have problems.

Last year I met an American that told AFIP that his "novia" was staying in it when he was trying to sell his apartment. He was really renting it out. He told them that his novia was using it. AFIP sent an inspector to the building to talk to the doorman. Long story short... I don't think he was ever allowed to sell.

I'm sure that many people fib to AFIP. Just make sure if you do that they won't catch you a lie because it will be a nightmare.

At the other end of the spectrum I've seen Americans that were renting out expensive homes, refused to pay the true rental taxes on the rents but just declared small amounts each month and made regular payments. It was a fraction of the true 21% tax but AFIP saw regular payments each month and granted the permit.

I think as long as your boyfriend or friend was using the property but don't underestimate AFIP these days. Before they were clueless but now they have really wised up. Looking at utility bills, demanding to see ALL phone bills and looking at phone records, gas bills, water bills, and even talking to doormen.

Keep in mind Portero jobs are VERY difficult to find and probably one of the best jobs around. Most doormen won't lie to AFIP and risk their jobs, even if you are friends with them.

Also the MOST important thing to realize is that things don't have to make sense with AFIP. In fact, most times it doesn't make any sense at all like much of what happens in Argentina. You just scratch your head and tell yourself this can't really be true or doesn't make sense....but it's how things are done. The worst thing to do is speculate that something sounds too crazy and can't be how things are done. You will kill yourself if you think like that in Argentina. Many things just don't make sense there.

 

[HernanG]

Wow, so much new stuff to think about.

This isn't correct. After the changes in the law in October, it's NOT legal to buy an apartment paying outside of Argentina. Of course you still could attempt to and I've seen cases where both the buyer and seller agree, but it's "black".

If you're a non-resident, AFIP can and definitely will probably see how you brought in the funds to Argentina for the purchase. Remember you have to apply for a permit to sell if you're a non-resident so it's not wise to do anything in black when buying.

What you did bringing in $10,000 US each trip is legal. But you will have to show proof via your passport and make sure to keep a copy of the passport if you renew it and show the entry stamps and preferably also show the withdrawals of cash from your bank statements.

I doubt AFIP will allow you to say "friends brought in the cash for you".

Previously before October 2011 it was perfectly legal to sell a property and get paid abroad. Heck, it was even all documented on the escritura the account you wired to. But now with this change it's now illegal. Just check with AFIP or any reputable Escribano that really specializes with many transactions.

This was a HORRIBLE change for both residents and non residents alike.

Does that mean that since I am a "permanent" resident then they will not ask me how I brought the funds into the country?

And if they do ask, what if I have records of bank transfers to each friend and get copies of their passports - would it be enough?

I am in the middle of a sell right now. I can tell that AFIP wants to know in details how you got the money in to Argentina. If you brought cash yourself, you need to show passports or get a transcription at emigrations. The only white way in is with Banco Nacion. Another thing to think of nowdays is "ganancia". AFIP wants to see all electricity bills for the years you have been an owner. You can get a trancript at Edenor. AFIP will look at the periods when you were out of the country, if any consumation you will be charged for sublettings 20% of an estimated value. If you prefer to fight, your sell will be delayed...for a long long time....

Is that 20% of the estimated value at the time of sale or at the time when you were out of the country?

This is exactly true. Mostly I've seen that AFIP hasn't bothered my friends that bought before 2006. But I think things changed around 2006/2007 where they were much stricter about how funds were coming in.

Also, keep in mind that there are something like 27 AFIP offices around Buenos Aires and some of them are MUCH more difficult than others. Many of them don't even know the laws and some are very strict. And you can't just go to any AFIP office you want. It depends on which one you were assigned to based on where you got your CDI (tax ID #) or where the person that has a power of attorney is assigned to. It's all a bit complicated but just know some are easier than others.

I have a friend that went back and forth all the time to Argentina and the USA. He wired in the funds in "black" but when he went to sell the property he just said each time he brought in $10,000 US each time and there wasn't anything they could do to disprove it. But they did ask to see all the passport stamps so make sure you have that prepared if you will use that as an excuse.

AFIP is a total nightmare. Lately I had a friend that had problems getting a permit to sell. And keep in mind he was up to date on ALL his taxes. He paid his ABL on time, he paid his annual asset taxes on time and he even declared ALL his rentals and paid the income tax on it. He was using a reputable property management company in town that required to pay taxes.

This guy STILL had problems getting the permit. It turns out that two of the months that he owned the property, the utility bills showed usage even though only 1 rental week was declared which was the truth. It could just be the utility company made a mistake but rather than appeal it which would have really slowed things down...he paid the 2,500 pesos so he could close.

VERY few reputable escribanos are going to mess around with doing transactions now allowing the buyer to wire abroad, etc. It's not worth the potential hassles to them now. I know a few escribanos that did it all the time before but now they don't want to deal with them.

Also, the other big problem you have is the issue if you wire abroad is a matter of trust. Assuming you buy a property and you wire abroad to the seller's account in the USA/Europe/etc, are you going to wire the funds first? I'd NEVER wire funds before you signed the title deed because you're saying that you paid the funds in cash in Buenos Aires. And the seller wouldn't want to sign the title deed first because if you didn't pay the deed would say you already paid in cash. HUGE trust issue.

Sure, you can find a third party to "Escrow" it but it becomes much more complicated and involves huge amounts of trust. Also, when you go to sell the property, you still have to keep in mind AFIP WILL ask you how you got the funds into Argentina when you bought it.

All things to think about....

Are you saying that they are not bothering with investigating the things that happened before the laws were changed and since I bought in 2005 I would probably not be investigated?

Also, I was under the impression that because I am a resident and because my apt will sell for way less than 600,000 I wouldn't need to get permission from AFIP at all. Even on their website it says that you don't need a COTI if the value is less than that.

If I understood it correctly here: http://www.afip.gov.ar/inmuebles/

This is the relevant text:

El “Código de oferta de transferencia de inmuebles” (COTI) deberá ser tramitado con carácter previo a la ocurrencia de alguno de los siguientes actos, el primero que suceda: negociación, oferta o transferencia de un bien inmueble o de derechos sobre bienes inmuebles a construir, cualquiera sea su forma de instrumentación, siempre que algunos de los siguientes valores resulten iguales o superiores a $ 600.000: precio consignado en cualquiera de los actos aludidos, base imponible fijada a los efectos del pago de los impuestos inmobiliarios, tributos similares o valor fiscal vigente.

 

[earlyretirement]

Just keep in mind that no one can tell you exactly what AFIP might or might not do. I'm just speaking from my experiences and experiences of the many friends that have bought and sold real estate in Buenos Aires as non-residents.

If you are a permanent resident and have your DNI then you won't have to get a permit from AFIP to sell. That's one of the biggest advantages to having your DNI and permanent residency. You will NOT have to go through the permit process unless the government enacts new laws, which I doubt they will for people with permanent residency.

So much of the rest of your questions are kind of a moot point. The real scrutiny is on foreign non-residents that must apply for a permit to sell. In your case, you won't have to go through that process.

As to the guy that listed specific percentages. I don't think anyone can give blanket statements of what % AFIP will charge. Like I mentioned before, there are about 27 AFIP offices around Buenos Aires and most of the employees in them are fairly clueless or do whatever they want. You can ask 5 different AFIP offices something and get back 5 different answers. My friend that just got the permit (was initially denied because they said he didn't pay all the rental taxes due even though he did) was told he had to pay rental taxes on 2 months. They didn't really even have any true formula how they came up with the 2,500 pesos extra he had to pay. He paid it to get the permit quickly. Such is life in Argentina.