Economy What Would Dollarization Mean for Expats?

[RealLit]

But that's my point. What does Argentines get from other Mercosur countries? Most of them don't have good Universities like Argentina has. I get they could go and live in those countries but most of those countries are hellholes that most wouldn't want to live in.

Argentina is dead ass broke so a lot of things needs to change including giving free education to all of those countries. That is just wrong.

I'm genuinely interested what the main benefits for staying in it. I get why they started it - https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/mercosur-south-americas-fractious-trade-bloc

OK, but my point is that they are two separate things. You can axe the free education for every mangy-ass wannabe-socialist from Culo del Burro without leaving Mercosur.

Mercosur isn't working like it should, true, but it is a trade alliance; it can be fixed, it can be reformed. And Latin America desperately needs one of those if it is to have any hope of reclaiming lost sovereignty and charting its own course. Hopefully not one that leads over a cliff

 

[RonnieHot]

The boring answer is that Argentina doesn’t need “heroes” it needs 12 or 16 years of incremental reforms. Hard graft and all parties working together for the good of the Argentine people.

Unfortunately due to the severe structural economic problems that Argentina has I can’t see the Argentine people putting up with a government long enough to bring about the changes needed.

To overcome 40 or 50 years of a mismanaged economy in 4 years is just an impossibility.

 

[RealLit]

Certainly you know your history. It was indeed the dictatorship that really screwed up the economy, and things have never fully recovered.

But I would remind you all that the K paid off the IMF and got it out of the country, while Macri borrowed 43 Billion USD and issued 100-year bonds. Yes, 100 years. One shudders to imagine what the buitres will make of that in the year 2117.

Despite claims to the contrary, over the 12 years that they held the Presidency between them, Nestor & Cristina reduced Argentina's external debt steadily, year by year.

The boring answer is that Argentina doesn’t need “heroes” it needs 12 or 16 years of incremental reforms. Hard graft and all parties working together for the good of the Argentine people.

Unfortunately due to the severe structural economic problems that Argentina has I can’t see the Argentine people putting up with a government long enough to bring about the changes needed.

To overcome 40 or 50 years of a mismanaged economy in 4 years is just an impossibility.

 

[earlyretirement]

The boring answer is that Argentina doesn’t need “heroes” it needs 12 or 16 years of incremental reforms. Hard graft and all parties working together for the good of the Argentine people.

Unfortunately due to the severe structural economic problems that Argentina has I can’t see the Argentine people putting up with a government long enough to bring about the changes needed.

To overcome 40 or 50 years of a mismanaged economy in 4 years is just an impossibility.

Yes this is probably one of the best posts on here I've read. It's going to be impossible for anyone. Things will get so bad that odds are whomever gets elected will probably not make it their 4 years in office.

 

[Jetreee]

I don’t know whether or not it’s naivety on my part but I would consider the presidency a poisoned chalice by any measure. I truly believe you’d have to be insane to a strong degree to even want to pursue it.

In any case, it saddens me that a country so rich in passion, culture, resources, and personality struggles so much. I don’t think I’ll ever understand the semantics and peculiarities of the Argentinian economy but, perhaps naively, I hope there’s a sensible economic path that can be carved.

From a predominantly outsider perspective, Argentina is a never-ending contradiction which is as profoundly upsetting as it is both peculiar and fascinating

 

[Jetreee]

The boring answer is that Argentina doesn’t need “heroes” it needs 12 or 16 years of incremental reforms. Hard graft and all parties working together for the good of the Argentine people.

Unfortunately due to the severe structural economic problems that Argentina has I can’t see the Argentine people putting up with a government long enough to bring about the changes needed.

To overcome 40 or 50 years of a mismanaged economy in 4 years is just an impossibility.

Would it be fair to argue that for true and huge reform, that it would be so politically unpalatable that it perhaps perpetuates the impossibility of it reasonably occurring?

However, there’s only so much road you can kick the can down, and I think that’s a problem throughout the west that for once isn’t a uniquely Argentinian issue.

 

[earlyretirement]

Would it be fair to argue that for true and huge reform, that it would be so politically unpalatable that it perhaps perpetuates the impossibility of it reasonably occurring?

However, there’s only so much road you can kick the can down, and I think that’s a problem throughout the west that for once isn’t a uniquely Argentinian issue.

Definitely big changes are needed but like another poster mentioned, Argentina is so screwed up and has been for decades so NO ONE can turn this around overnight. It's a multi-year process and things are going to be painful and get worse before they get better.

My first trip to Argentina on vacation Argentina had 5 Presidents in the span of 2 weeks! I am not joking. While it may sound fun to play the hero. Actually joking around on Tik Tok is one thing. Having millions upon millions of people desperate, starving and angry is another.

When things get bad people won't be patient and that's part of the problem. This is going to be painful no matter who wins. I don't know anyone that would want this job.

 

[RealLit]

How anyone could watch that lunatic rant & rave like that, and then vote for him, is beyond my imagining.

That is a dangerous man

 

[earlyretirement]

How anyone could watch that lunatic rant & rave like that, and then vote for him, is beyond my imagining.

That is a dangerous man

Well look at Trump and how many people voted for him. He says a lot of stupid stuff but in the end his policies they believe are much better than Biden and the Democratic Party.

 

[RealLit]

Well look at Trump and how many people voted for him. He says a lot of stupid stuff but in the end his policies they believe are much better than Biden and the Democratic Party.

better than Biden
You are familiar with the phrase, "damning with faint praise"?

"Hey, sweetheart that new perfume of yours smells better than dogshit."

 

[earlyretirement]

better than Biden
You are familiar with the phrase, "damning with faint praise"?

"Hey, sweetheart that new perfume of yours smells better than dogshit."

I agree both Trump and Biden are both dogshit. Hard to fathom it's going to be those two clowns running again. My vote is for Vivek. SUPER sharp guy with good ideas.

 

[RinderHerts]

He is a loon. An entitled man-child. And there is a lot of unexplored baggage in his past. Where did the money come from to pay for 3 private university degrees, if his father was a "bus driver"?
A dead giveaway for trouble is his constant need to discuss his penis- it comes up in a lot of his interviews, along with "free love", "tantric sex instructor" and the clue of no acknowledged girlfriends, pretty much ever. Anybody who likes to talk about it so much always ends up showing it to people who dont want to see it...
And whats up with Cloning his dog? Thats Musk level crazy, right there.
Menem at least gave us his fastest ever Ferrari ride to MDQ.
This guy will end up going down in flames, having started the fire himself.

 

[earlyretirement]

He is a loon. An entitled man-child. And there is a lot of unexplored baggage in his past. Where did the money come from to pay for 3 private university degrees, if his father was a "bus driver"?
A dead giveaway for trouble is his constant need to discuss his penis- it comes up in a lot of his interviews, along with "free love", "tantric sex instructor" and the clue of no acknowledged girlfriends, pretty much ever. Anybody who likes to talk about it so much always ends up showing it to people who dont want to see it...
And whats up with Cloning his dog? Thats Musk level crazy, right there.
Menem at least gave us his fastest ever Ferrari ride to MDQ.
This guy will end up going down in flames, having started the fire himself.

Like Trump if he would just show some restraint..... but alas impossible with narcissists.

 

[RinderHerts]

Trump has 40 years of mayhem- 20 odd accusations of sexual predatory behavior, Literally thousands of lawsuits, mostly for non-payment or outright fraud, Billions in bankruptcies, Endless legal issues going back to the original 1973 lawsuits by the Department of Justice, and then the multiple indictments now.
Milie is a baby, barely getting started.

 

[BenArg]

I’ve owned various businesses in Argentina over the last twenty years and I can tell you from first hand experience that the taxes are so onerous and never ending that to compare them to anything in the USA (specifically Florida, where I also own businesses) is preposterous.
The rumor is true: Argentina IS among the most difficult places to do business in the world and if you followed the law it would be mathematically impossible to earn a profit.
That being said, such a treacherous environment keeps out most of the “smart money” and thus more nimble and less restrained individuals such as myself can do their thing here. If you catch Argentina at the right point in the cycle and you are in the right business you can make alot of money here.

 

[earlyretirement]

I’ve owned various businesses in Argentina over the last twenty years and I can tell you from first hand experience that the taxes are so onerous and never ending that to compare them to anything in the USA (specifically Florida, where I also own businesses) is preposterous.
The rumor is true: Argentina IS among the most difficult places to do business in the world and if you followed the law it would be mathematically impossible to earn a profit.
That being said, such a treacherous environment keeps out most of the “smart money” and thus more nimble and less restrained individuals such as myself can do their thing here. If you catch Argentina at the right point in the cycle and you are in the right business you can make alot of money here.

EXACTLY. ArgentinaVet you get it. I've found very few people on this forum have actually done business or set up companies here in Argentina. People can speculate or try to compare it to the USA or anywhere else. But for anyone that has truly done it. You are exactly right. Argentina is horrible. Do the math and if you actually paid every single tax you're legally obligated to pay, there is virtually no way possible to make a profit. It's just impossible. And that needs to get fixed ASAP with a new presidential regime.

The labor laws as well are all broken. As you mentioned, you can still time things if it happens to be in a right cycle, you can do ok but the profit might come from things you do outside of Argentina and not an actual good or service that you're providing IN Argentina.

You can't compare Argentina with any other countries to do business except for maybe the seediest places on Earth maybe in Africa.

Argentina is and probably always will be an amazing place for a retired ex-pat to live. But a horrible place to try to operate any type of business. A paradise for a digital nomad.

 

[Jetreee]

I don’t know if this is the right place to pose this question, though I feel the topic has drifted sufficiently that such a question remains on topic, would withdrawing protectionism policies that Argentina maintains be beneficial?

Please correct me if I’m wrong but I believe that Argentina maintains very strong policies of protectionism. Do those more in the know than I believe that these are overall beneficial, or that such a friction in trade perpetuates the economic problems in Argentina?

 

[RinderHerts]

I still want to know why so many immigrants from other South American countries, and from the USA, come to Argentina and start businesses, if its worse than anyplace but the worst country in Africa?
My original objection was to the phrase
"Here, if you produce goods and services that the market wants, you're threatened, extorted, and taxed to the point that you have to move to Uruguay."
especially the part about threatened and extorted, and the idea that Uruguay is better for manufacturing.
I would agree the taxes need reform.
The tax codes here were essentially written by the oligarchs, in response to the power Peron gave the Unions.
The very wealthy here, mostly descended from the spanish land grant families, with a few mid 20th century immigrants thrown in, run everything, and own most of the big business, including the press, tv, utilities, energy sector, airlines, and more.
They also, curiously enough, are often the presidents...
Macri, Bullrich, and, yes, at this point the K's, are oligarchs, with vast structural wealth.
Milei seems to want us to assume he is also, but my guess is he is somewhere between Macri and George Santos in terms of wealth.

I would love to see the tax system shift from taxing 3 or 4 major ag exports, and raw materials, and instead have a broader set of progressive taxes.
I would also love to see the government actually support and encourage the export of the huge range of value added products made here, rather than just focus on soybeans and corn and wheat.
Turkey, for example, has a non-profit Trade Center in NYC that promotes Turkish exports to the USA, including warehousing, logistics, and trade shows.
Argentina does nothing of the sort.
The govermnent could easily help support the logistics and a showroom in NYC for argentine clothing and shoes- right now, individual companies do this on their own, and I have know some who sold in Japan and Paris, for example, and it was a lot of work. But the market was receptive, and the Argentine products, in everything from electrical transformers to pasta making machinery to shoes is all totally saleable, if it wasnt so hard to get it out of the country.

(and, no, I dont live in Retiro- thats where I work. I live in the extreme NW corner of Recoleta, a block one way I would be in Palermo, a few blocks another way, I would be in Almagro.)

 

[earlyretirement]

I still want to know why so many immigrants from other South American countries, and from the USA, come to Argentina and start businesses, if its worse than anyplace but the worst country in Africa?
My original objection was to the phrase
"Here, if you produce goods and services that the market wants, you're threatened, extorted, and taxed to the point that you have to move to Uruguay."
especially the part about threatened and extorted, and the idea that Uruguay is better for manufacturing.
I would agree the taxes need reform.
The tax codes here were essentially written by the oligarchs, in response to the power Peron gave the Unions.
The very wealthy here, mostly descended from the spanish land grant families, with a few mid 20th century immigrants thrown in, run everything, and own most of the big business, including the press, tv, utilities, energy sector, airlines, and more.
They also, curiously enough, are often the presidents...
Macri, Bullrich, and, yes, at this point the K's, are oligarchs, with vast structural wealth.
Milei seems to want us to assume he is also, but my guess is he is somewhere between Macri and George Santos in terms of wealth.

I would love to see the tax system shift from taxing 3 or 4 major ag exports, and raw materials, and instead have a broader set of progressive taxes.
I would also love to see the government actually support and encourage the export of the huge range of value added products made here, rather than just focus on soybeans and corn and wheat.
Turkey, for example, has a non-profit Trade Center in NYC that promotes Turkish exports to the USA, including warehousing, logistics, and trade shows.
Argentina does nothing of the sort.
The govermnent could easily help support the logistics and a showroom in NYC for argentine clothing and shoes- right now, individual companies do this on their own, and I have know some who sold in Japan and Paris, for example, and it was a lot of work. But the market was receptive, and the Argentine products, in everything from electrical transformers to pasta making machinery to shoes is all totally saleable, if it wasnt so hard to get it out of the country.

(and, no, I dont live in Retiro- thats where I work. I live in the extreme NW corner of Recoleta, a block one way I would be in Palermo, a few blocks another way, I would be in Almagro.)

Well true many people from South America come here for opportunities. Namely Peruvians and Venezuelans. Lots of Asians have grocery stores, nail salons, etc. But you have to remember that many of these businesses are CASH type businesses. Do you really think they are declaring all the income? Nope. All my point and I think the other poster are making is if all these people declared all that income, there would not only be $0 left. It would be negative 0.

Argentina for them is the land of opportunity and it's better than the crappy situation or dictator in their country. Don't get me wrong. Argentina is a wonderful country. That's not the issue that I wanted to argue. It's just that that tax system structure makes no sense.

I don't know many Americans that have come to Argentina to do businesses. Most of the ones I know are retired, permanent-tourists or digital nomads.

 

[SerchMinm]

I still want to know why so many immigrants from other South American countries, and from the USA, come to Argentina and start businesses, if its worse than anyplace but the worst country in Africa?
My original objection was to the phrase
"Here, if you produce goods and services that the market wants, you're threatened, extorted, and taxed to the point that you have to move to Uruguay."
especially the part about threatened and extorted, and the idea that Uruguay is better for manufacturing.
I would agree the taxes need reform.
The tax codes here were essentially written by the oligarchs, in response to the power Peron gave the Unions.
The very wealthy here, mostly descended from the spanish land grant families, with a few mid 20th century immigrants thrown in, run everything, and own most of the big business, including the press, tv, utilities, energy sector, airlines, and more.
They also, curiously enough, are often the presidents...
Macri, Bullrich, and, yes, at this point the K's, are oligarchs, with vast structural wealth.
Milei seems to want us to assume he is also, but my guess is he is somewhere between Macri and George Santos in terms of wealth.

I would love to see the tax system shift from taxing 3 or 4 major ag exports, and raw materials, and instead have a broader set of progressive taxes.
I would also love to see the government actually support and encourage the export of the huge range of value added products made here, rather than just focus on soybeans and corn and wheat.
Turkey, for example, has a non-profit Trade Center in NYC that promotes Turkish exports to the USA, including warehousing, logistics, and trade shows.
Argentina does nothing of the sort.
The govermnent could easily help support the logistics and a showroom in NYC for argentine clothing and shoes- right now, individual companies do this on their own, and I have know some who sold in Japan and Paris, for example, and it was a lot of work. But the market was receptive, and the Argentine products, in everything from electrical transformers to pasta making machinery to shoes is all totally saleable, if it wasnt so hard to get it out of the country.

(and, no, I dont live in Retiro- thats where I work. I live in the extreme NW corner of Recoleta, a block one way I would be in Palermo, a few blocks another way, I would be in Almagro.)

How did the Ks get to be oligarchs? Wasn't CFK's father a bus driver?