Newcomer Considering retiring in Argentina but have so many questions

[CreyCruz]

Dear expat community,

Thanks for being here. I have been reading your posts to learn about living in Argentina.

My situation is this: Argentine-born but living abroad since a teenager. Never worked or paid taxes in Argentina. Now, I am approaching retirement age and anticipating a small retirement income, in dollars. I am considering a slow life in the provinces but have many questions by the prospects of moving here, baffled by the red tape and illogical regulations. (Note that I have been doing a lot of research lately and feel encouraged by the many new immigrants who are choosing the country at this time.)

1) Money: how do you bring a few dollars into the country? Obviously, the country does not bank in dollars. So…? No dollar bank account? A small account in pesos? How do you even purchase a little plot of land?

2) Belonging in the system: I have researched work and minimum salaries and they do not seem possible to me. So, if I am retired, what would be the benefit of becoming part of the bank system at that stage? Is it possible to remain outside of it? Is it better to rent or to buy property? (Again, a little plot of land in the country.) I’ve heard that taxes are ridiculous. Currently, I do not belong to this jurisdiction. I guess that by moving here, I would? (Double-nationality?)

3) Would it be better to rent? How do people use their monthly retirement money? Transfer into pesos? Keep elsewhere? There is also the chance that a couple of years from now I would rather pick up and go away. How easy would this transition be? I know people stuck unable to sell their properties. How much more expensive is renting?

4) I’ve been looking online and everything is either listed in dollars or in crypto (DAI, USDT, etc.). I am baffled as to how people can come up with the huge sums of dollars when the country does not allow people to keep dollars? Can someone explain? How do you buy a vehicle or a little plot of land? Or a house? (I’ve already given up hope of moving my little Honda or my campervan to Argentina as it seems ridiculously expensive.)

5) I have family in Argentina and the hope that it is still safe enough to live here and that it would give me a better life than growing old in the US, where I am right now. Is this realistic? Are there better options? (Chile? Uruguay?)

Any thoughts and tips are appreciated. -- Longtime away

 

[RinderHerts]

Many US retirees get their SS checks deposited monthly in their argentine bank accounts in pesos.
Its very difficult to live in Argentina without a bank account, and a DNI, so "being in the system" is kinda a necessity.
You will then be able to put your various monthly payments on autopay from your bank account.
I have bought property here, not a rural lot, but the process is the same for all purchases- its all priced in dollars, and the transaction takes place in dollars. Poor people dont own property here, unless they inherit, as saving tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars is not possible on average minimum salaries.
Uruguay is much more expensive, both for buying property and daily living.
Argentina has complications, for sure, but its actually pretty liveable for people on low incomes, compared to many countries.
In dollars, utilities, health care, taxes, food, and public transportation are a fraction of what they are in places like the USA.
But I would agree- you need to come down, rent short term for a couple of months, and see if its for you.

 

[earlyretirement]

Argentina is a GREAT country to retire in if you're earning a foreign currency like US dollars. You can live reasonably well there. You would just convert over to pesos as needed. No need to keep a big stash of pesos. Before making a lot of big plans, just rent an Airbnb for a few months and see how you like it. The other benefit to doing this is you an rent in different neighborhoods to compare without a big long-term commitment. Most owners will give you a discount to rent several months so check with the various companies.

On Airbnb you can easily get an idea of management companies that manage several properties. I'd recommend always filter by Superhost so you are dealing with good reputable owners/managers.





1)

- No reason or need to bring down tons of cash. You can easily find private companies/banks to get money into Argentina. Most will charge a small % for you to wire into their USA/European account and then get the funds there in Argentina. You can use foreign credit cards as well. It's not as good as cash rate but it's fine for a few months and in a bind.

2
- You don't really need to "belong" to the system. The only benefit of having a local account is paying bills online. I'd just rent a few months and see how you like it before you buy. I'm not sure if you are implying taxes are ridiculously high or low? I don't need to get residency. Argentina is an easy country to come and go and many "permanent-tourists".

3)

- Yes, just start out and rent and see how you like it. Keep ALL your cash savings outside of Argentina and just buy pesos as needed. You can rent for all budgets so look on Airbnb and you can easily see the ranges. Prices in all ranges depending on location and amenities and size.

4)

- There is a lot of generational type wealth in Argentina. Also, the fact that many don't fully trust the banks, people just save up until they can buy a property or families help out their kids. Inflation is also high so a lot of people just always are spending money. Look at the restaurants and they are always full. You don't really need a car in Argentina. I had one when I lived there but I only used it on Sunday or when I went to Uruguay on the Buquebus as I had a house in Uruguay. Having a car in Buenos Aires is NOT needed.

5) I have family in Argentina and the hope that it is still safe enough to live here and that it would give me a better life than growing old in the US, where I am right now. Is this realistic? Are there better options? (Chile? Uruguay?)


- Argentina is a safe country. You won't have issues there. DEFINITELY it's a much higher quality of living in retirement vs. the USA. I find Buenos Aires to be one of the best options for retired people. At the blue market exchange rates, it's quite reasonable to eat, you can get healthcare for not too much. It's safe and a pretty easy city to navigate.
I find other countries in South America not to be nearly as good.
Other countries might be cheaper but it's not that great. Buenos Aires is a world class city. Really beautiful, tons of things to do, sporting events, concerts, Teatro Colon. Great neighborhoods, great public transportation and easy to get around.

Go for it! If you have family here that even makes it easier. I assume you're totally fluent so that part is super easy. That's probably the biggest issue I see for retirees that move down here and don't speak the language or never can really get immersed in the local culture. You won't have that issue.

I definitely plan to move back to Buenos Aires once I fully retire. Maybe not live there year-round as it's miserable there in the summer months with the heat and humidity. But it sure beats the USA.

The toughest thing I think you will encounter is things aren't nearly as efficient in Argentina. Stuff is inefficient, tons of red tape, lines in many places. And when they don't work there isn't really anything you can do. For example, internet can go out for 3 days. I've lived in the USA for 12 years and my internet hasn't gone down even once. Things work well here. In Buenos Aires things like that can be a hassle. But if you learn to live with those types of inefficiencies it will be fine for you. Especially if you're retired.

 

[AmirJacks]

Many US retirees get their SS checks deposited monthly in their argentine bank accounts in pesos.
Its very difficult to live in Argentina without a bank account, and a DNI, so "being in the system" is kinda a necessity.
You will then be able to put your various monthly payments on autopay from your bank account.
I have bought property here, not a rural lot, but the process is the same for all purchases- its all priced in dollars, and the transaction takes place in dollars. Poor people dont own property here, unless they inherit, as saving tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars is not possible on average minimum salaries.
Uruguay is much more expensive, both for buying property and daily living.
Argentina has complications, for sure, but its actually pretty liveable for people on low incomes, compared to many countries.
In dollars, utilities, health care, taxes, food, and public transportation are a fraction of what they are in places like the USA.
But I would agree- you need to come down, rent short term for a couple of months, and see if its for you.

At the official exchange rate? Is it possible to have a USD foreign currency account at the right bank?

 

[earlyretirement]

At the official exchange rate? Is it possible to have a USD foreign currency account at the right bank?

I used to have an Argentine and US dollar account in Argentina with HSBC bank. I was a Premier client for many, many years. I haven't lived in Buenos Aires for a few years and all of a sudden a few years ago they gave me notice that my account was closed. They wouldn't tell me why. Keep in mind I have my DNI and have had permanent residency for many years.

I didn't have a chance to go during COVID at all and just recently went a few weeks ago. Fortunately I was able to get all my cash out.

The manager told me that they were closing US dollar accounts of any members that didn't have any job in Argentina as determined by Argentine tax returns. I've heard of other foreigners that were able to open bank accounts in Argentina but not sure if this is still the case.

I agree by and large that the Argentine banks suck there. The only reason I wanted one was to easily pay bills but I have my property manager pay them so it's not too big of a deal.

 

[RinderHerts]

Money wired to your account by, say, western union, will usually be just a bit below the blue rate. Much better than official.
I have found that post pandemia, its a lot harder to do many things without a DNI, even with a real bank account.
I have had a Banco Nacion basic account for over 10 years, and find it very useful. I have waited in line at pago facil- in fact, I still have to, to pay my expensas for my studio- and its not how I want to spend my day. I have had auto pay on my utilities, and, until the pandemia, was able to pay my expensas for my apartment online banking- and boy, did I prefer that to waiting a half hour on the sidewalk outside pago facil.
And, you need a bank account and DNI to actually use mercado libre- the not very close substitute for amazon and ebay here.
And post pandemia, its almost impossible to buy tickets for events in cash any more. Many sellers, even on facebook marketplace, want you to transfer money online to their account.
Having a bank account has had a lot of upsides for me- the only downside is having to deposit cash, although almost all banks have dedicated deposit atms, which seldom have any wait, because they dont give cash out.
I am getting my DNI in the mail hopefully next week, which will make using my bank account even easier and more convenient.

 

[FelipeMex]

HSBC made a big cleanout of expat accounts a few years ago (it would have been in 2014 or 2015), earlyretirement was lucky he was notified, since their SOP was to close the account without notice, sequester the money, and fail to respond to enquiries. Best stay well away from them.

 

[earlyretirement]

Money wired to your account by, say, western union, will usually be just a bit below the blue rate. Much better than official.
I have found that post pandemia, its a lot harder to do many things without a DNI, even with a real bank account.
I have had a Banco Nacion basic account for over 10 years, and find it very useful. I have waited in line at pago facil- in fact, I still have to, to pay my expensas for my studio- and its not how I want to spend my day. I have had auto pay on my utilities, and, until the pandemia, was able to pay my expensas for my apartment online banking- and boy, did I prefer that to waiting a half hour on the sidewalk outside pago facil.
And, you need a bank account and DNI to actually use mercado libre- the not very close substitute for amazon and ebay here.
And post pandemia, its almost impossible to buy tickets for events in cash any more. Many sellers, even on facebook marketplace, want you to transfer money online to their account.
Having a bank account has had a lot of upsides for me- the only downside is having to deposit cash, although almost all banks have dedicated deposit atms, which seldom have any wait, because they dont give cash out.
I am getting my DNI in the mail hopefully next week, which will make using my bank account even easier and more convenient.

Actually you can use MercadoLibre with your USA Credit card. I've bought a ton of stuff on that website including bigger items like stoves/ovens and just used my USA credit card. I just used a fake DNI (I never really like using my real DNI #) and didn't have any issues. FYI. This was just a few weeks ago.

 

[earlyretirement]

HSBC made a big cleanout of expat accounts a few years ago (it would have been in 2014 or 2015), earlyretirement was lucky he was notified, since their SOP was to close the account without notice, sequester the money, and fail to respond to enquiries. Best stay well away from them.

Yes, actually they didn't notify me if I remember correctly, I just went to pay a bill one day and I couldn't log in. I called to my HSBC branch in Recoleta and reluctantly they told me that my account was closed but that I had to come into a branch personally to discuss it. This was before COVID and then I didn't go down for several years until a few weeks ago.


So I go in and tell her I would like to withdraw all the funds. I had over $10,000 US dollars in my US dollar account. And the first thing the girl said was "can you prove you have cash in your account" Fortunately I had a print out of an old statement that showed the balance in it.

I was locked out of my account and online statements only showed for 2 years so if I didn't have a copy of that downloaded statement I'm not sure what I would have done. But I was really glad to get my cash as it had been several years that passed since they closed it.

 

[earlyretirement]

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know if any of these utilities let you pay your utilities via Visa (credit card) at all? Most of my properties in other countries I can pay them with my credit card. I was wondering if this is possible with any utility bills in Argentina?

 

[StiveCosae]

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know if any of these utilities let you pay your utilities via Visa (credit card) at all? Most of my properties in other countries I can pay them with my credit card. I was wondering if this is possible with any utility bills in Argentina?

I have been paying all of my utility bills in Argentina with a Visa credit card since late 2006.

When I lived in Capital Federal (2006-2010) and the first couple years I lived in the province, I always paid my utility bills using my US Visa credit card.

Since opening a Santander Rio account in Bahia Blanca in 2012, I have been paying for all of my utilities (as well as my municipal fees and provincial property taxes) with my Santander Rio Visa credit card.

All of the invoices show up online in my Santander Rio account and I easily pay them in a few seconds.

I don't even have to go to any of the utilities websites to pay the monthly bills, but I imagine it is still possible to pay utility bills in Argentina using a foreign Visa credit card.

It just hasn't been economical to do so until recently.

 

[earlyretirement]

I have been paying all of my utility bills in Argentina with a Visa credit card since late 2006.

When I lived in Capital Federal (2006-2010) and the first couple years I lived in the province, I always paid my utility bills using my US Visa credit card.

Since opening a Santander Rio account in Bahia Blanca in 2012, I have been paying for all of my utilities (as well as my municipal fees and provincial property taxes) with my Santander Rio Visa credit card.

All of the invoices show up online in my Santander Rio account and I easily pay them in a few seconds.

I don't even have to go to any of the utilities websites to pay the monthly bills, but I imagine it is still possible to pay utility bills in Argentina using a foreign Visa credit card.

It just hasn't been economical to do so until recently.

Thanks so much Stive for your always helpful and insightful posts. I honestly believe you are the single best source of information on this forum. Thanks for always providing great posts. It's greatly appreciated.

 

[RichardOne]

Re, Paying utility bills with Debit Card . The Pagofacil units around my area in Recoleta have signs reading "Cash Only"

 

[MisSnow]

Yes, actually they didn't notify me if I remember correctly, I just went to pay a bill one day and I couldn't log in. I called to my HSBC branch in Recoleta and reluctantly they told me that my account was closed but that I had to come into a branch personally to discuss it. This was before COVID and then I didn't go down for several years until a few weeks ago.


So I go in and tell her I would like to withdraw all the funds. I had over $10,000 US dollars in my US dollar account. And the first thing the girl said was "can you prove you have cash in your account" Fortunately I had a print out of an old statement that showed the balance in it.

I was locked out of my account and online statements only showed for 2 years so if I didn't have a copy of that downloaded statement I'm not sure what I would have done. But I was really glad to get my cash as it had been several years that passed since they closed it.

How small? Because I am shopping around and I am looking forward to get your advice, @earlyretirement ! You sound like a pro, but I can't see your profile.

 

[earlyretirement]

How small? Because I am shopping around and I am looking forward to get your advice, @earlyretirement ! You sound like a pro, but I can't see your profile.

I haven't purchased a property in Buenos Aires for many years but I doubt the process and relative fees would be too much different. If I recall, it was around 1.5% to 2% fees to get US dollars in legally to Buenos Aires. I'd assume it would be easier and cheaper now as the banking is easier now vs. many years ago.

Now, try to arrange with the seller if they have an account outside of Argentina, you can wire directly to their account. Several purchases, I did it like this so I didn't have to worry about getting the funds into Argentina. It's perfectly legal to arrange that and it's all stipulated on the title deed.

Any decent realtor there should be able to refer you to one of these "private banks". I've seen a few of them listed here on these forums. I don't want to mention them now as I haven't used any for a long time so I don't know if these specific ones are still around but any decent sized realty firm will be able to refer you to one of these.

 

[AmirJacks]

I haven't purchased a property in Buenos Aires for many years but I doubt the process and relative fees would be too much different. If I recall, it was around 1.5% to 2% fees to get US dollars in legally to Buenos Aires. I'd assume it would be easier and cheaper now as the banking is easier now vs. many years ago.

Now, try to arrange with the seller if they have an account outside of Argentina, you can wire directly to their account. Several purchases, I did it like this so I didn't have to worry about getting the funds into Argentina. It's perfectly legal to arrange that and it's all stipulated on the title deed.

Any decent realtor there should be able to refer you to one of these "private banks". I've seen a few of them listed here on these forums. I don't want to mention them now as I haven't used any for a long time so I don't know if these specific ones are still around but any decent sized realty firm will be able to refer you to one of these.

How is the escrow process handled when buying property in Argentina using the above method -- or are the payment to the seller and conveyance of deed to the buyer independent events connected only by trust?

 

[RinderHerts]

How is the escrow process handled when buying property in Argentina using the above method -- or are the payment to the seller and conveyance of deed to the buyer independent events connected only by trust?

"escrow" as known in other countries doesnt really exist.
you hire an escribano, he writes up the offer and the details.
the seller may negotiate, but eventually, you agree on details.
then you meet in neutral territory- we have done it in a bank, and in the colegio de escribanos more recently.
in that room, you, and your escribano, and any other consultants you may want (once, we had a lawyer, another time a bilingual architect friend or ours) and the seller, and his people, sign all the papers.
The money goes thru a counting machine, and then is divided up- usually one stack to any realtors, one stack to the escribano for their services, one stack to pay off any unpaid taxes, expensas, or loans, and then, the rest to the seller.
The title is what you sign, they sign, and the escribano stamps. Thats what you get, its not exactly a "deed", but its proof of ownership, legal description, and sales document, and the escribano will file it with the city.
It works fine, everybody does it all the time.

 

[earlyretirement]

How is the escrow process handled when buying property in Argentina using the above method -- or are the payment to the seller and conveyance of deed to the buyer independent events connected only by trust?

As others mentioned,

"escrow" as known in other countries doesnt really exist.
you hire an escribano, he writes up the offer and the details.
the seller may negotiate, but eventually, you agree on details.
then you meet in neutral territory- we have done it in a bank, and in the colegio de escribanos more recently.
in that room, you, and your escribano, and any other consultants you may want (once, we had a lawyer, another time a bilingual architect friend or ours) and the seller, and his people, sign all the papers.
The money goes thru a counting machine, and then is divided up- usually one stack to any realtors, one stack to the escribano for their services, one stack to pay off any unpaid taxes, expensas, or loans, and then, the rest to the seller.
The title is what you sign, they sign, and the escribano stamps. Thats what you get, its not exactly a "deed", but its proof of ownership, legal description, and sales document, and the escribano will file it with the city.
It works fine, everybody does it all the time.

When wiring directly to the seller that has an account outside Argentina, keep in mind that when you do it legally, ALL details are specified on the title deed. YOU as the BUYER legally get to select the lawyer (Escribano) to be used for the transaction. All real estate sales in Argentina have to go through an escribano and to protect yourself you can select the lawyer that will be used for the transaction.


As Ries mentioned, there is no escrow used in Argentina. Argentina has a great system where the title deed history is all tracked at the federal level. Any liens or encumbrances will be noted on the title deed history. The most important part is having a skilled, ethical and honest escribano that will check the title deed history to make sure there are no liens or encumbrances on the property.


Almost all sellers will want to do a "boleto" which is a 30% down payment of the property price. Once you do the boleto it's pretty much the point of no return. If you back out you will lose that 30%. If the seller backs out they have to return your boleto and double it to penalize them from backing out of the deal. This locks both sides in.


The times I have wired abroad, all of this was noted on the boleto that both sides agreed to. Then when you're ready to close, you would wire directly to the seller's account outside of Argentina. It is all detailed on the title deed. You have to keep in mind that many sellers even if they have an account outside of Argentina, they won't want to do this as the government doesn't know they have accounts abroad. However, many years ago there was an amnesty where Argentines would pay a small % penalty and wouldn't be in any legal jeopardy so many people have declared accounts outside of Argentina.

Then at closing you simply wire to their account. Your lawyer (escibano) would prepare the legal paperwork and there would be a secondary form that said the title deed transfer wasn't valid until the 2nd document acknowledging that the funds were received was signed. I never had any issues.


This is the best way if you can swing it. But more times than not, people will want to close in cash because they need the cash to buy something else. Most people selling are either upgrading or downgrading to a smaller apartment and they would still need cash.


In that situation, you could use a private bank or one of the institutions like Banco Piano or the others mentioned in this forum. Again, any reputable realtor should be able to refer you to a private banker that can help facilitate the transaction. Or most likely a good escribano can also make the same introduction. It isn't that difficult.
And if you close in cash then typically one transaction (boleto) and one transaction escritura (title deed closing) you take turns doing it at the other person's bank/institution. Yes, the cash is a royal pain in the ass. Even in the times that I wired to the seller, I still had to wire in cash to pay realtors commissions, escribano's commission and various taxes and stamp taxes. Also proportional expenses depending on the day you close.


Ries outlined the process well. I wouldn't want to sign at the colegio of escribanos. I always arranged it to do it in the private bank/financial institution or the normal bank. I always preferred doing it at the bank as the employee of the bank would count the money. Typically you always want to do the final escritura signing at your financial institution and I'd write up in the initial offer that we would do the closing at my financial institution of my choice. Then I would have to do the boleto (30% deposit) at their financial institution.

Seems crazy in this day and age dealing with cash but Argentina was always crazy in this way. It probably always will be with the lack of faith and trust in people/banks but more so probably because locals have much of their wealth in cash not in actual banks in Argentina.

 

[MisSnow]

"escrow" as known in other countries doesnt really exist.
you hire an escribano, he writes up the offer and the details.
the seller may negotiate, but eventually, you agree on details.
then you meet in neutral territory- we have done it in a bank, and in the colegio de escribanos more recently.
in that room, you, and your escribano, and any other consultants you may want (once, we had a lawyer, another time a bilingual architect friend or ours) and the seller, and his people, sign all the papers.
The money goes thru a counting machine, and then is divided up- usually one stack to any realtors, one stack to the escribano for their services, one stack to pay off any unpaid taxes, expensas, or loans, and then, the rest to the seller.
The title is what you sign, they sign, and the escribano stamps. Thats what you get, its not exactly a "deed", but its proof of ownership, legal description, and sales document, and the escribano will file it with the city.
It works fine, everybody does it all the time.

I don't feel comfortable walking around with a bag of money to go to the Colegio de Escribanos. If the seller wants Ben bills, they can meet me where I say and then it is their business how they bring the money away safely.

My first property was paid by bank transfer abroad, sellers were foreigners. We sat at the Escribano's office and everybody was in the room while I arranged the wire transfer from my laptop, followed by a phone call to my bank. I had informed my bank in advance that I was about to make a large transfer on that day to avoid hiccups.
Everybody signed, the seller confirmed they had received the money 1-2 days later, once the period to cancel the transfer had elapsed and the transaction was no longer pending. A week later I went at the escribano office to pick my final deed.

While pushing a stack of money over the table can be suggestive in a movie and it is definitely more immediate than the w/t, it is a big safety risk for both the seller and the purchasers. Of course "here they do it all the time", but it is also the only country where I heard stories of bank employees leaking information to robbers, assault to banks on a transaction day, people being followed (they have your address) etc. As soon as you rent a bank room on a given day/time, they will know that a large amount of cash will be coming in or out of the building. They also have your address on file, so they know where to find you...

 

[earlyretirement]

I don't feel comfortable walking around with a bag of money to go to the Colegio de Escribanos. If the seller wants Ben bills, they can meet me where I say and then it is their business how they bring the money away safely.

My first property was paid by bank transfer abroad, sellers were foreigners. We sat at the Escribano's office and everybody was in the room while I arranged the wire transfer from my laptop, followed by a phone call to my bank. I had informed my bank in advance that I was about to make a large transfer on that day to avoid hiccups.
Everybody signed, the seller confirmed they had received the money 1-2 days later, once the period to cancel the transfer had elapsed and the transaction was no longer pending. A week later I went at the escribano office to pick my final deed.

While pushing a stack of money over the table can be suggestive in a movie and it is definitely more immediate than the w/t, it is a big safety risk for both the seller and the purchasers. Of course "here they do it all the time", but it is also the only country where I heard stories of bank employees leaking information to robbers, assault to banks on a transaction day, people being followed (they have your address) etc. As soon as you rent a bank room on a given day/time, they will know that a large amount of cash will be coming in or out of the building. They also have your address on file, so they know where to find you...

Definitely what you write about bank employees leaking information is completely true. I have first hand witnessed a few times when people got robbed immediately after leaving a bank. I personally witnessed a time at the HSBC in Recoleta when an old lady was leaving the bank and a motorcycle with 2 guys on it grabbed the lady's purse. I posted about it on this forum many, many years ago.

It was amazing watching the lady holding on to her big purse. They dragged her halfway down the block but eventually they got away. I thought to myself, for sure someone in the bank probably called or texted someone that she was leaving. This is the reason why when you're sitting in a bank's lobby they don't allow you to use your cellphone.