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GerardX

New member
Our building had an administrator for one year who did nothing for us, and robbed us. She didn't respond to my emails asking questions about our building issues. I wanted to file a complaint against her, but I didn't know where to go. In early March we voted her removed as administrator. She was supposed to turn over all our records over in ten days, but took her sweet time so she could charge us for another month of doing nothing. A complaint against her had to be made while she was still our administrator. I missed my big opportunity to do so.

I have yet to talk with an apartment owner in any building who says they have an outstanding administrator that handles things in a timely matter and keeps the owners informed. Administrators manage too many buildings to make more income, so attention to detail and good communication with consorcios is impossible. One meeting with owners each year is all they have time for.

Our new administrator took over in late March when we signed a motion appointing her at a special meeting. She let the previous administrator take weeks to turn over our records, so our consorcio was basically unable to operate. We had no access to our bank account nor any idea of the balance. She, too, ignored my emails about things that needed attention in our building. The previous owner's council resigned, and there were no one willing to sign up. I tried to keep the lines of communication open on what we needed done in the building. The monthly liquidation showed that there was no payment for fire insurance which is mandatory. The emergency lights in the hallways haven't worked in years. The fire extinguishers expired in July. The administrator was not doing her job. The book of owners was not complete, so technically voting at a meeting was illegal unless a signature appeared in it. I asked to see the previous year's receipts and got no response from her. I started researching the law online about what administrators in the city are obligated to do. Ours was getting away with mismanagement from the start.

Administrators have responsibilities which are clearly set forth in the law. If they don't complete them, an owner or renter has the right to file a complaint, which is what I did. I went to Comuna 3 offices where I talked with a woman handling consumer issues. (She lived in California and Puerto Rico for years, so much of our conversation was in English.) I provided copies of my unanswered emails to the administrator. I completed the required form indicating the areas which our administrator has not complied. The city website provides all the information for this process. I provided my DNI and a photocopy, a copy of my electric bill, and documentation to prove my case against her. I was given an appointment on October 30 with the staff lawyer who will handle the matter. The notice will be mailed to the administrator. I am looking for answers why our administrator has been so unresponsive to taking care of business for our building and knowing whether she is interested in improving. The last liquidation indicated making payments of expenses to her bank account, so I withheld payment. The consorcio has/had a bank account with Santander Rio opened by the previous administrator.

I'm posting to share the information because there are certainly others who are dissatisfied with their administrators as I am. It's common to do nothing and put up with business as usual. Administrators continue collecting their monthly salary for doing as little as possible and are never available by phone. I will update the thread after my Oct 30 meeting with the lawyer and our administrator.

Here is the place to start: http://www.buenosaires.gob.ar/defen...sorcios/que-pueden-denunciar-los-consorcistas

Compliance with the administrator's obligations:

Lack of administrator registration.
It does not execute the decisions adopted by the assembly of the owners in the terms of execution required of the administrator.
It does not carry out the conservation of the common parts, not safeguarding the security of the building according to the current regulations.
Lack of contracting of compulsory insurance.
It does not carry in due form the compulsory books of the consortium.
It does not keep the supporting documentation of the consortium's suppliers.
It does not guarantee the free access of the documentation and / or the obligatory books to the consortiums.
Failure to report to the competent authority any unregulated situation and the works executed in the building that it administers without the respective work permit or without notice of work.
No bank account in the name of the consortium of owners where the funds are deposited.
Lack of convocation to the ordinary or extraordinary assembly in time and form according to the consortium's co-ownership regulation.
Failure to return the expired books within 10 days in case of resignation, cessation or removal
Breach of the requirements demanded in the bills of payment of expenses
Failure to submit proof of registration in the ordinary or extraordinary meeting at the time of appointment.
The manager hires suppliers of products or services that do not meet the mandatory requirements, for example when hiring a gas supplier who is not enrolled.

If your administrator isn't complying with any item on this list, you have the right to make a claim with the consumer protection agency.
 
The new Comuna 3 offices in Spinetto Shopping Mall (the entire square block of Moreno & Pichincha & Alsina & Matheu) opened this week after a delay of almost two years. If you live in Balvanera or San Cristobal, this is your place to handle all kinds of city business including community mediation, consumer protection complaints, licenses, AGIP, etc.

I visited the new offices today (after going to Sarandi 1273 that has closed) to file a complaint against the owner and tenant of an apartment in our building that has cockroaches in the apartment and rats in the garden for many years. The owner does nothing to help. The administrator of the apartment does nothing except collect the rent, and the tenant continues living in a mess that is a health and fire hazard affecting the lives of everyone building. After 16 years, it was time to file a complaint with Mediacion Comunitaria.

Much to my surprise, the young woman handling my complaint was an American from Atlanta, Georgia USA, who is bi-lingual, so she was able to get this job with the city government. I explained the situation, provided correspondence with names, addresses, etc. and she completed the mediation request form and asked me which date and time was convenient for the meeting. The people notified must appear.

Comuna 3 has English speakers for both Mediation and Consumer Protection.
 
Good luck! I'm not as optimistic as you know. Consumer protection and Argentina don't really go hand in hand. EVERYTHING takes forever and no real recourse. Judicial system is a joke and even if you have a case, with all the corruption, judges can get bribed and you can lose. (I've had it happen to me). The judicial system there is a joke. I sincerely hope you make progress but wouldn't hold my breath.
 
Good luck! I'm not as optimistic as you know. Consumer protection and Argentina don't really go hand in hand. EVERYTHING takes forever and no real recourse. Judicial system is a joke and even if you have a case, with all the corruption, judges can get bribed and you can lose. (I've had it happen to me). The judicial system there is a joke. I sincerely hope you make progress but wouldn't hold my breath.
I don't share your opinions about the system. I attend neighborhood meetings that are for the sole purpose of understanding problems and providing solutions. I'm on the city mailing list so I receive almost daily messages about all the ways the city government is working to improve the lives of its citizens. There are consumer protection offices in the neighborhoods so that consumers can report problems and work things out through mediation.

The process is simple. One files a complaint and the mediation date is scheduled. Why would the city have these offices if they didn't take this seriously? I am confident that both of my complaints will be resolved. It costs nothing for the process. An agreement is prepared after mediation to which the parties agree, and then another meeting scheduled for confirmation of compliance. The mediators are lawyers who take this work seriously.
 
I don't share your opinions about the system. I attend neighborhood meetings that are for the sole purpose of understanding problems and providing solutions. I'm on the city mailing list so I receive almost daily messages about all the ways the city government is working to improve the lives of its citizens. There are consumer protection offices in the neighborhoods so that consumers can report problems and work things out through mediation.

The process is simple. One files a complaint and the mediation date is scheduled. Why would the city have these offices if they didn't take this seriously? I am confident that both of my complaints will be resolved. It costs nothing for the process. An agreement is prepared after mediation to which the parties agree, and then another meeting scheduled for confirmation of compliance. The mediators are lawyers who take this work seriously.
Don't get me wrong. I'm thrilled to hear that you're getting meaningful resolutions. So how many of these "mediation processes" have you been through? And what were the results? Was it an outcome you were happy with? From start when you file the claim to the outcome, how long did it take?
 
Early Retirement,

Pardon me for saying this.

Some of your posts are very good indeed.

But at times, I get the impression, you are trying too hard to impress us with "your money", "Your worldwide properties" and "how you seem to know everything about everything" and "How you know everything about BA and rest of us are duffers" and how " you have done many businesses here and how many accountants and lawyers and businessmen you know here while rest of us are homeless, sitting on pavements".
 
Sorry if I give off that vibe. It's not intended. I'm not trying to impress anyone, especially a bunch of expats on a message board. I don't know everything about everything. I'm giving opinions on my real-life experiences in Argentina. I'm no expert on it or saying my answer is correct. Just giving my real life experiences and opinions which is what these boards are all about. So if you ever read about something that you disagree with, then post about it and explain why. I'll politely post back.

If you think otherwise about BA being so efficient with mediation and judicial system, I suggest you post your experiences. I'm sorry but in all my experiences I do NOT find the judicial or mediation system there to work smoothly (or quickly).

If you have many great examples of it working, I'd sure love to hear about it. Thanks. Also, I believe if you don't like reading my posts there should be an ignore feature that you can utilize.

I told the OP I was happy that she had this outlet and asked to report experiences about her mediation results and how long it took because I don't know it all and want to learn.
 
Early Retirement,

Like I said in my earlier posts, Some of your posts are very good. So I will not be using the "ignore" feature. But I do get the impression you try to "over compensate" in trying to tell us how rich you are and how much you know about USA, Argentina and the world while rest of us are duffers, broken, lost entities.

You have re-appeared here on this message board, few weeks ago after a gap of few years. Not sure, whats the agenda. Your posts are welcome. But when senior/regular/respected contributors like "Jantango" who lives 12 months a year here ( unlike you) provides a useful/unique post basis her personal experience, it is to be applauded for sharing and not ridiculed in a subtle way "Oh this country sucks..bla bla bla".

This board is of course meant for sharing personal experiences. Opinions are OK too..but there should be respect for senior members who are regular contributors and who are trying to share a unique experience.
 
No, I'm not trying to over compensate for anything. I'm sorry if you get that opinion. I try to always give the facts. I try to always be respectful with people and objective. So I'm sorry if I give the impression that "the rest of you are duffers, broken, lost entities" I believe I'm always respectful in my posts so I'm sorry if you don't get that impression. I see petty bickering and arguing and people putting people down on a DAILY basis here. I don't believe my posts would fall in that category in the least.

I don't have any agenda. I post information based on my experiences like I said. When in her post did I say the country sucked??? Please don't imply that I said that in this post. I didn't say that.

I don't believe I disrespected the OP in the least. I even asked her to follow up with some good helpful questions. So I'll ask you Ceviche, a long-time member on the board. In what ways/examples do you find consumer protection, judicial system and mediation speedy, efficient and fair in Argentina? Can you post some personal and specific examples? I'm always willing to hear about these things in Argentina because that is FAR from my experience.
 
No, I'm not trying to over compensate for anything. I'm sorry if you get that opinion. I try to always give the facts. I try to always be respectful with people and objective. So I'm sorry if I give the impression that "the rest of you are duffers, broken, lost entities" I believe I'm always respectful in my posts so I'm sorry if you don't get that impression. I see petty bickering and arguing and people putting people down on a DAILY basis here. I don't believe my posts would fall in that category in the least.

I don't have any agenda. I post information based on my experiences like I said. When in her post did I say the country sucked??? Please don't imply that I said that in this post. I didn't say that.

I don't believe I disrespected the OP in the least. I even asked her to follow up with some good helpful questions. So I'll ask you Ceviche, a long-time member on the board. In what ways/examples do you find consumer protection, judicial system and mediation speedy, efficient and fair in Argentina? Can you post some personal and specific examples? I'm always willing to hear about these things in Argentina because that is FAR from my experience.
Thank you.
 
Thank you.
No problem. I'll work on that. Unfortunately with typing vs. speaking things can get taken the wrong way. It's good to know and I'll work on it. Many times when I post about companies that I have invested in Argentina, accountants, lawyers, bankers, etc is because just from all these investments I deal with massive amounts of these people on a regular basis which creates unique experiences and glimpses into the banking/judicial/legal/banking system. So many times I want to emphasize that there is a lot of experiences based over the past 20 years of working there. Vs. just being an ex-pat with not too many encounters or experiences with judicial system, banking system, mediation, taxes, etc.

I'd venture to guess many ex-pats here don't really have to focus on really difficult things on a daily basis that other business owners have to deal with. Not saying everyone doesn't have their own struggles but that's the point I'm getting across many times that seems to be taken the wrong way.

You asked about why I started posting more and it's because I am thinking of moving back full time. I spend several months a year there but toying with the idea of moving back there full time.

I mentioned this in other posts but I truly love Argentina very passionately. Sometimes I get so frustrated and post about the negative things because I truly want to see systemic change in my lifetime. But please don't take my posts the wrong way. They aren't meant to put down anyone. I love Argentina and I always will. Despite all the inefficiencies and problems and issues. I'll always love it and just want to see the best for it.
 
Earlyretirement: I'm been a member here for almost 10 years and I don't remember ever having come across another poster more knowledgeable about a wide range of pertinent subjects and diplomatic than you. A month or two ago people were complaining about lack of interesting posts and what could be done to stimulate traffic here. I think your input has played a very important part in revitalizing this site. Thank you for contributions. Please keep up the good work.
 
Earlyretirement: I'm been a member here for almost 10 years and I don't remember ever having come across another poster more knowledgeable about a wide range of pertinent subjects and diplomatic than you. A month or two ago people were complaining about lack of interesting posts and what could be done to stimulate traffic here. I think your input has played a very important part in revitalizing this site. Thank you for contributions. Please keep up the good work.
Thanks for those really kind words Milton! It's greatly appreciated. Yes, I used to stop by over the past few years and I noticed it got mostly dead. I used to constantly see new content and responses but it seems over the years I saw more fighting, trolls, arguing about petty things, political debates, etc.

I like to contribute when I can if I have an opinion that I think would be applicable to the thread. I've had so many different experiences here in Argentina over the past 20 years. Like I said, I may not always be right but I will at least give you as objectively as I can my personal experience and opinion on something. I'm here to learn as much as any of you all are.

But still, if I read something that I just totally disagree with then I feel obligated to point out my experiences on it. So when someone posts how things are efficient on a particular subject or how they got something resolved with their administrator quickly and reasonably then I want to hear about it. I personally own many properties in Buenos Aires and that is very far from my experience with them.

Most of these administrations are horribly inefficient, deceitful (based on my experiences), unorganized, sloppy with accounting. They are constantly turning over. I've only had one building where I own in where the administration is very good and hasn't turned over and been there since the building was finished. But most of them just aren't organized.

Others that were stealing money and got caught there was no real recourse. I guess you can try mediation but when they go out of business there isn't really anything you can do. I'm really interested in hearing about personal experiences on this thread and examples of someone answering my question about all their great experiences. I've just never personally seen that or heard about it with friends or acquaintances.

Thanks again Macanudo. I'm glad not everyone finds my posts as offensive as others. I've been a moderator on several very large national message boards dealing with various topics including economy and finance and investing. And always make an effort to post objectively and try to be as polite as possible. So again apologies to anyone that took my posts the wrong way.

One thing I've learned moderating on various forums for so many years is that you're not going to please everyone all of the time. And some people will not be happy no matter what you write. But I never like offending anyone intentionally.
 
Don't get me wrong. I'm thrilled to hear that you're getting meaningful resolutions. So how many of these "mediation processes" have you been through? And what were the results? Was it an outcome you were happy with? From start when you file the claim to the outcome, how long did it take?
First of all, the city has a new mayor Horacio Rodriguez Laretta who listens and responds to citizens at his quarterly neighborhood meetings. I went to these meetings when Laretta was vice mayor under Macri. I encourage you to attend these meetings and learn about what is going on in your neighborhoods.

My first mediation process is detailed in the thread about noisy neighbors when I filed a report with the police, presented my case to a lawyer at the Ministerio Publico Fiscal on Bme Mitre 1735, followed by a mediation hearing at their offices. It took months to resolve, but the desired results were achieved. My noisy downstairs neighbors are quiet after many years; noise began the month I moved in, March 2002. I didn't know about mediacion comunitaria then. Now I do, and that is why I am sharing it on this forum.

I have two hearing dates scheduled this month. There are more cases filed with consumer protection, so the wait is six weeks for a hearing. The one I filed with community mediation was scheduled in three weeks. I will report on both hearings on this thread.

A neighbor on my street complained about their consorcio administrator, so I supplied the form he needs to file a complaint with consumer protection and where to present it in the new Comuna 3 offices. Generally, people who work don't have the time for these situations. Our consorcio almost hired his administrator earlier this year. If owners don't speak up, their administrators continue doing nothing for them or as little as possible.
 
First of all, the city has a new mayor Horacio Rodriguez Laretta who listens and responds to citizens at his quarterly neighborhood meetings. I went to these meetings when Laretta was vice mayor under Macri. I encourage you to attend these meetings and learn about what is going on in your neighborhoods.

My first mediation process is detailed in the thread about noisy neighbors when I filed a report with the police, presented my case to a lawyer at the Ministerio Publico Fiscal on Bme Mitre 1735, followed by a mediation hearing at their offices. It took months to resolve, but the desired results were achieved. My noisy downstairs neighbors are quiet after many years; noise began the month I moved in, March 2002. I didn't know about mediacion comunitaria then. Now I do, and that is why I am sharing it on this forum.

I have two hearing dates scheduled this month. There are more cases filed with consumer protection, so the wait is six weeks for a hearing. The one I filed with community mediation was scheduled in three weeks. I will report on both hearings on this thread.

A neighbor on my street complained about their consorcio administrator, so I supplied the form he needs to file a complaint with consumer protection and where to present it in the new Comuna 3 offices. Generally, people who work don't have the time for these situations. Our consorcio almost hired his administrator earlier this year. If owners don't speak up, their administrators continue doing nothing for them or as little as possible.
I never read your post about the noisy neighbors. Sounds like the process is a good first step. I wasn't surprised to hear it took many months. But at least you got the problem resolved! That's great. I look forward to reading about how this turns out so keep us posted.

I wish things worked quicker but I just haven't had any experiences which things quickly got resolved. Took months and months typically. But it's good to hear about these things to at least start the process. From my experience, even if you send a carta documento and complain most people don't take immediate action because there is no real consequences because people know the judicial system doesn't work there efficiently (if at all).

Do you know what happens if someone just ignores the mediation request? Thanks for sharing.
 
@GerardX
I went back to the original URL that you detailed about your noisy neighbor expecting to find some smooth, more efficient process but instead I read about just what I had been talking about. Slow, inefficient outcome. That's more or less what I'd expect. While yes it's good to start somewhere, I don't leave that thread coming away with the feeling that it really helped you resolve the situation efficiently or easier. No more than just sending a carta documento, getting the administration involved, etc. like people really do.

I've also had neighbors like this and as mentioned, it's always a pain dealing with. I went down the carta documento, etc. path but it took a while. But I'd say even in my case it went smoother and quicker than what you mentioned on that website but definitely it doesn't hurt to start there. Did you have any fees at all dealing with them and filing a case?

What about if it had to go further and you had to take legal action. You'd pay for all legal fees dealing with that. Yes? It's not as if you filed on that website and they would help you with legal fees? Or assign a lawyer to assist you?

I read in that original thread you posted about someone else that had physical violence threatened to them if they proceeded with the case. I've also known friends that had a similar situation. They ended up just selling and moving. Then I know others where they got phone calls all hours of the night waking them up calling and also ringing their doorbell over and over. It mysteriously stopped once they stopped trying to get anywhere with their carta documento.

It sounds like a good place to start the process but it's far from ensuring that you'll get some quick and immediate outcome. I've had several legal actions I took against people and honestly in almost each case it's not been worth it because the judicial system is painfully slow, you have to still pay lawyers which often times in some disputes takes YEARS.

I'd be curious to hear what happens if someone ignores a mediation request? What penalty they have. That's more or less what I found the problem is. You can have laws but in the end there aren't many consequences for someone when they do something bad. Since everything is so inefficient and no efficient judicial system things take forever.

When it comes down to it, if someone wants to be a Ahole in Argentina it's painful to deal with. But thanks again for taking the time to detail this process and can't wait to hear more about it. Next time I have some issue, I'll try it.
 
In my first case with the noisy neighbor, she appeared for the first mediation session, but ignored those scheduled for follow-up. My case was closed by the Ministerio Publico Fiscal, and enough time passed that they refused to consider reopening it. I was appointed a lawyer in the case, and I didn't pay anything during the entire ordeal. My neighbor occasionally continued to test my patience with her loud talking, barking dogs, and late night television viewing (she is deaf and wears a hearing aide), but eventually settled down after 14 years. At the beginning of winter 2018, she installed a new air-conditioning/heating unit on the outside wall of the building just below my bedroom window without obtaining prior approval from the consorcio. I informed our new administrator who ignored my request that she intervene. I then wrote the neighbor about the new apparatus which turns on for five minutes, then off for five. The vibrations and noise interrupted my sleep. There are city laws about noise level limits in residential areas. I hear it operating when I'm in my living room. My email to her received a threatening response, typical from a bully. I'll present it as evidence if I decide to proceed with a mediation against her.

The mediation notices are legal notices from the government that cannot be ignored. After an initial meeting, both parties sign a written agreement that is drafted by mediators. Both parties are required to appear at a future meeting with the mediation lawyer to confirm whether the party has complied with the terms of the agreement. Only then is the case closed.

Administrators of consorcios must comply with the laws established by the city. Too many of them get away with doing nothing for consorcios except preparing monthly expense reports and collecting the money. They don't answer phone calls or emails from owners. They take commissions from work projects they arrange. Once I read what the administrator was supposed to do, it was easy to file a complaint citing what she is not doing. My complaint was taken seriously by the consumer protection agency. I will know how serious the administrator is about her work at the hearing on October 30.
 
In my first case with the noisy neighbor, she appeared for the first mediation session, but ignored those scheduled for follow-up. My case was closed by the Ministerio Publico Fiscal, and enough time passed that they refused to consider reopening it. I was appointed a lawyer in the case, and I didn't pay anything during the entire ordeal. My neighbor occasionally continued to test my patience with her loud talking, barking dogs, and late night television viewing (she is deaf and wears a hearing aide), but eventually settled down after 14 years. At the beginning of winter 2018, she installed a new air-conditioning/heating unit on the outside wall of the building just below my bedroom window without obtaining prior approval from the consorcio. I informed our new administrator who ignored my request that she intervene. I then wrote the neighbor about the new apparatus which turns on for five minutes, then off for five. The vibrations and noise interrupted my sleep. There are city laws about noise level limits in residential areas. I hear it operating when I'm in my living room. My email to her received a threatening response, typical from a bully. I'll present it as evidence if I decide to proceed with a mediation against her.

The mediation notices are legal notices from the government that cannot be ignored. After an initial meeting, both parties sign a written agreement that is drafted by mediators. Both parties are required to appear at a future meeting with the mediation lawyer to confirm whether the party has complied with the terms of the agreement. Only then is the case closed.

Administrators of consorcios must comply with the laws established by the city. Too many of them get away with doing nothing for consorcios except preparing monthly expense reports and collecting the money. They don't answer phone calls or emails from owners. They take commissions from work projects they arrange. Once I read what the administrator was supposed to do, it was easy to file a complaint citing what she is not doing. My complaint was taken seriously by the consumer protection agency. I will know how serious the administrator is about her work at the hearing on October 30.
I have to give you great credit jantango. You sound like a really patient person. That sounds like a great program if you're not billed anything. But I guess what you mentioned with her showing up for the first mediation and then not showing up again or answering and then them closing the case and reopening it. That's more or less what I'd expect and what I was referring to. That's the most frustrating thing about living in BA is that people can 'game' the system and there isn't much recourse. But it's AWESOME that they paid for the lawyer during the case.

I think there is more recourse with administrators vs. individual neighbors because if they want to keep doing business then they probably can't have any issues. But even then I've seen companies changing names and operating under a new company. There are a lot of shady things as well. In past buildings where I own, I've seen people on the board referring friends and getting kickbacks, over billing, non-action, phantom bills and many other things.

Thanks for taking the time to post follow up answers as it's really educational.
 
EarltRetirement:
Perdoname for saying this:
I know you´re good, but Damn it you´re right again.
Well, I tried so hard to impress you I was the one and only senior frequent flyer on this board.
 
EarltRetirement:
Perdoname for saying this:
I know you´re good, but Damn it you´re right again.
Well, I tried so hard to impress you I was the one and only senior frequent flyer on this board.
This is one of those cases that I was hoping that I was wrong and someone could post an example of something efficient and working. But unfortunately the way the system is set up in Argentina it's really difficult to get satisfaction judicially when you are wronged or have a dispute.

I still think it's great that jantango took the time to post it and I applaud the city for even having the initiative. It's a good start but my biggest complaint would be that like the old difficult lady in the previous thread who never showed back up. They just closed the case. That sounds like par for the course.
 
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