James Bond
Well-known member
When do you think the cepo will end @enbits? Many people are saying they don't see the cepo being lifted any time soon. I don't think anyone really knows.
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Paying for real estate in Buenos Aires with Bitcoin or crypto?
- Thread starter Digital Nomad
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I hope next year. It is wise from the government to not do it now. Macri removed it at the very beginning and it wasn't a good thing for the economy.
Betsy Ross
Well-known member
The government already signaled they wouldn't remove it until at least middle of 2025. It killed the economy. Many people made a lot of money but the country suffered.
Finance Prof
Well-known member
I honestly don't see them fully removing the Cepo. The government is terrified to let the peso float freely. Maybe the IMF or China disburses some funds and most likely you will see Caputo just easing restrictions allowing people and companies to buy a monthly limit of USD in banks and cuevas.
But we aren't going to see an end of the cepo any time soon.
Uncle Wong
Well-known member
Ha. That is if they ever get rid of it. Seems like there is no easy way to end the cepo. I guess they don't have to worry about implementing it again if they never get rid of it.
Blockchain
Well-known member
It sounds like cash is still king. I found cuevas where you send bitcoin and USDT and they charge about 2.5% to 3% fees. If the seller doesn't accept crypto directly which it sounds like no one is still willing to do this. Is it legal to bring in cash this way to Argentina?
Vince
Well-known member
People are doing this and of course people have been using cuevas for many years because of the Cepo. Milei probably doesn't care how you are bringing in money but this is not legal with the currency controls. Argentina also has strict money laundering laws. Ironic since they allow their own citizens to launder money but when I bought my place I had to go through a private bank. There were more currency controls when CFK was President. But I was told that I had to legally bring in my money to avoid problems. I had to pay about 3% to bring in cash from my bank in the US.
People posted some advice in other threads about this. Argentina changes rapidly between Presidents. People find ways to get their cash into Argentina and it is not difficult. Typically no free way to get USD here legally except bringing it $10k at a time. It is more difficult to get cash out when you are selling if you happen to have a corrupt administration in place. That should be the worry.
earlyretirement
Moderator
Great points being made. Many things don't make sense in Argentina. Many things are ass backwards. But it is what it is and the best thing you can do is follow the laws when it comes to dealing with 100% cash closings. As @Vince mentioned, there are very strict money laundering laws here. The problem with cuevas or using crypto and just cashing out is you are by-passing certain security checks to make sure you aren't some drug dealer or arms dealer. So it's not just a matter of having cash or crypto. There is a reason they are so strict too.
Presidents come and go as Vince mentioned. I have mentioned this fact many times over the past 2 decades doing business in Argentina. There have been many times and occasions I have seen when someone is selling a property, for them to see how the funds were brought into Argentina and if it was legal or not. There isn't really any shades of grey on this point. It is very easy for the government to see when you sell and ask how you brought funds into Argentina.
Sure, this doesn't happen all the time but it DOES happen. It is kind of comical that people would never dream of breaking some law in their home country but in a foreign country where they don't understand all the risks and possible bad outcomes for them to just not understand the laws in place. People are in a rush to just buy without fully understanding the process. Or a realtor will tell them to just wire in black and tell them it's ok and no one cares. Typically just so they can make their commission.
No matter how many times I say this, people don't understand that things are totally different here. Laws are different, process is different and system is different. If you choose to go ahead and do something illegally you should at least understand the possible ramifications. The currency controls can't end soon enough. But until they do, it would be wise to at least understand the laws.
There ARE legal ways to get USD cash into Argentina and typically those legal ways won't cost you more than the illegal ways. They typically cost the same amount of %. Many people that are choosing to do the illegal way typically have something to hide. In all my experiences in Argentina, it's much better to do things the right way.
Nasdaq
Well-known member
This is good advice. I do think it is probably impossible to avoid at least some declaring the full price. That is another issue. But I couldn't agree more with totally doing something that is not legal. This was the same advice we got from an Escribano when we were buying. The lawyer said verbatim what is being said. Not to think about bringing money in but worry about getting money out.
Up until recently, foreigners had to get a permit to sell their properties and part of the process was they would see if you brought in your money legally. You can go through a financial entity to legally bring in your money but they ask for a lot of documents including your tax returns from your home country and bank statements. At least they did with me.
The easy way when you sell is make the buyer wire to your bank but you are still stuck if the government brings back the requirement to see how you brought your money into Argentina.
Betsy Ross
Well-known member
This is what I had to do too. I had to pay cash at closing but it was crazy. I went through Banco Piano and I had to pay a commission to get the cash into Argentina. At the closing they had a stack of cash all on the table. It was crazy! The property owner I was buying it from counted out all the $100 bills. He was with his wife and they were both counting the money. The Escribano didn't want to touch any of it and just asked them to verify it. They had a money counter that they put through but the sellers insisted on counting out each bill.
I also had to provide bank statements and I can't remember if I had to provide my tax return but I had to fill out several forms and paperwork and they also run a background check to make sure you don't have a criminal record. An interesting process.
Based on what I heard today, going through a money exchange firm and liquidating crypto and getting cash isn't legal. I don't have any crypto anyway. I will just do it a legal way or try to find a seller that has an account outside of Argentina and wire directly. That sounds like the easiest and cheapest way.
From everyone I am speaking to this is still the way it is here. Many still want to just deal with cash. I met with a lawyer today and he also warned me that many foreigners buying and going through cuevas is not legal. Apparently Argentina has strict Know Your Client laws. I just saw Argentina avoided getting on the Grey list with FATF. I asked the lawyer today what implications that has and he was telling me that part of the agreement was a promise by Milei's government to review transactions by people getting cash here to Argentina.
The lawyer told me part of this could be just reviewing financial transactions including real estate purchases.
Mother Russia Argentina
Active member
This is what I see too. People only want cash when buying apartment here. So far no one I talk to want crypto-currency. All realtors we spoke to said no client owner accept bitcoin.
StatusNomadicus
Well-known member
yes, all done, escritura signed and all that last year. been offline doing some upgrades and making friends
this "alternative" you mention is the current working fork of Bitcoin, called BitcoinCash (BCH) and i've used it since 2017. there's a book about the history of Bitcoin's hijacking if you care to learn what happened:
Hijacking Bitcoin
Bitcoin was promised to be a liberating technology, a free market alternative to state-controlled money. But that promise was broken after a small group of insiders took over the project and fundamentally changed Bitcoin's design. Few people know the true history of Bitcoin and its original...
books.google.cl
the Seller said crypto was cool. i got the Boleto to say i would only pay directly to his Binance wallet for both 70% and 30% payments, and i paid my Realtor in Bitcoin as well. the fees were less than one cent USD to send over $100k USD total. happy to help other do the same; Argies are scared to publish their stuff, but i wasn't the first to use crypto to buy property, even in the smaller city of Mendoza.
calling it a shitcoin is retarded
StatusNomadicus
Well-known member
sure, there's just more to the story - argies are secretive and don't want to be the first ones using crypto on a Deed 🙂 i have other people who will say the opposite, and i successfully saw the whole process through, so there's a new data point for everyone
they sure wanted USD, then USDT, then BTC, but in the end they were just going to convert on the Binance exchange to USDT and then sell to a cueva contact in Mendoza for physical USD bills. i just stuck to my guns, and the housing market is so slow and overpriced that i knew with houses on the market for 3 years i can wait patiently
i sort of gave-up since Mendoza is a bit smaller, but for sure in BsAs there sshould be some. Locals are silly and just want USDT on the TRX-20 network or Binance, both of which are horrible centralized options with high risk of not actually owning your crypto on the blockchain. i don't do exchanges for this reason
@Blockchain said "I found cuevas where you send bitcoin and USDT and they charge about 2.5% to 3% fees" - so maybe he can elaborate where?
they be lyin'
nothing you will do in a real estate deal is legal, especially lising the value of a property at 40% 😉
true. and plenty of people using Bitcoin Cash, but still a minority:
Blockchain
Well-known member
sure, there's just more to the story - argies are secretive and don't want to be the first ones using crypto on a Deed 🙂 i have other people who will say the opposite, and i successfully saw the whole process through, so there's a new data point for everyone
they sure wanted USD, then USDT, then BTC, but in the end they were just going to convert on the Binance exchange to USDT and then sell to a cueva contact in Mendoza for physical USD bills. i just stuck to my guns, and the housing market is so slow and overpriced that i knew with houses on the market for 3 years i can wait patiently
i sort of gave-up since Mendoza is a bit smaller, but for sure in BsAs there sshould be some. Locals are silly and just want USDT on the TRX-20 network or Binance, both of which are horrible centralized options with high risk of not actually owning your crypto on the blockchain. i don't do exchanges for this reason
@Blockchain said "I found cuevas where you send bitcoin and USDT and they charge about 2.5% to 3% fees" - so maybe he can elaborate where?
they be lyin'
nothing you will do in a real estate deal is legal, especially lising the value of a property at 40% 😉
true. and plenty of people using Bitcoin Cash, but still a minority:
Actually first they told me they would do BTC but then when I tried they said they only do USDT. I couldn't find anyone that deals with BTC at cuevas. They all use USDT on TRC20 network.
I talked to a few realtors in Buenos Aires to see if there is a way to find out if anyone will take crypto but the ones I talked to said that there is not and they did not know of anyone accepting crypto. Not saying no one is doing it but it does not seem to be normal. Seems like cash is still normal in BA.
Vero
Well-known member
You only declare 40%?? That is not normal here. People declare lower but not that low!
yes, all done, escritura signed and all that last year. been offline doing some upgrades and making friends
this "alternative" you mention is the current working fork of Bitcoin, called BitcoinCash (BCH) and i've used it since 2017. there's a book about the history of Bitcoin's hijacking if you care to learn what happened:
spanish = https://books.google.cl/books?id=RSMpEQAAQBAJ
Hijacking Bitcoin
Bitcoin was promised to be a liberating technology, a free market alternative to state-controlled money. But that promise was broken after a small group of insiders took over the project and fundamentally changed Bitcoin's design. Few people know the true history of Bitcoin and its original...books.google.cl
the Seller said crypto was cool. i got the Boleto to say i would only pay directly to his Binance wallet for both 70% and 30% payments, and i paid my Realtor in Bitcoin as well. the fees were less than one cent USD to send over $100k USD total. happy to help other do the same; Argies are scared to publish their stuff, but i wasn't the first to use crypto to buy property, even in the smaller city of Mendoza.
calling it a shitcoin is retarded
Great that you could finish your transaction with crypto. It sounds like the real estate market is much much slower in Mendoza. Maybe sellers are more desperate there.
Here my Cueva will allow to send with USDT. Seems like that is what everyone here wants to use.
Not many people are dumb enough to only use 40% of the actual price.
Don't think people are saying it isn't possible. Only that 90% of sellers want cash. I talked to @BuySellBA a few weeks ago and they told me that even today with Milei almost all sellers are asking to be paid in cash. Realtors are also confirming to me that cash is still the method to pay. Some developers will allow wire transfer which is what I prefer. I spoke to GyD and they would allow me to wire in Dollars to their account outside of Argentina for no fee.
I was told that most sellers will ask to declare lower but I was told that it is not a good idea to declare less than 70%. @StatusNomadicus did you go that low? Aren't you worried about capital gains tax when you sell?
People that declare this low are stuck when they sell trying to get people to also declare very low. But that isn't always possible. That will be a big capital gains tax bill. Same thing happens in other countries but government is getting smarter about it. Not wise declaring such a low amount but may have been only way to get the deal done. But not wise going so low. Most lawyers won't allow that.
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