Real Estate Sales Who are buying houses?

[MarkLia]

So I'm looking on zonaprop at houses, something with 3 bedrooms and a little backyard space where we can raise two boys. The prices of the listings are the same if not more than homes listed in Miami. Is that right? And if so, who are buying these houses?

From what I gather, very few people here in CABA are making above 200 to 300k pesos a month, so how does one buy a US$300-400k house? I'm having trouble doing the math.

Are the prices listed in dollars but then you actually pay in pesos at the official rate with a 0 percent mortgage? I don't understand how the average family buys a house in or around the city.

Or maybe zonaprop is not representative of the real market?

 

[DavoSenes]

My wife and I decided to buy a plot of land in the province and build a house rather than buy an already built house, the prices even in certain parts of the province are not connected with reality and what our budget could afford wasn't what we were looking for.


From the Argentinian people I know that have bought houses they have either sold an inherited house in order to purchase an apartment or house for themselves, or they saved USD like mad during the years of a far better exchange rate.

Some older people I know were able to buy during the Menem years of a 1 : 1 exchange rate before the wheels came off that train.

I would say it's a huge source of frustration for young Argentinians now however as owning their own home or apartment here without an inherited house or cash rich parents to fall back on is nothing but a pipe dream given that putting away 100 or 200 dollars a month is almost a dream itself..

 

[RinderHerts]

The economics of the argentine real estate market are not comparable to the USA.

A few major points of difference-
The Argentine economy has been, historically, much more fragile, going back to the Baring Bank Crisis of the 1890s.
In all that time, the ONE reliable shelter for assets and value has always been real estate.
Argentines inherently trust real estate, and put their money in it.
Many Argentine friends of mine live in apartments that their grandparents bought.

There are no mortgages to speak of in Argentina- all transactions are in cash. Which makes it very difficult for many people, but also means, no foreclosures. Doesnt happen. So, again, its a very safe place to invest in that respect. I have heard of cases where zero taxes were paid for 30 years, but the government cannot seize it. Again, safe place for money.

And, in the eyes of most Argentines over 40, they have seen enormous appreciation in value. Even with current market downturns, if you bought you place in the 80s for 30 grand, and it just dropped from 300k to 240k, thats still, net a really good investment. (all prices in dollars).

Argentine real estate being priced in dollars, unlike any other investment easily available to the average argentine, makes it much safer- they have seen currencies come and go, inflation you would not believe. Despite the bellyaching of my fellow US citizens, the dollar has proven to be a pretty reliable and safe currency. Most Argentines cant or wont invest in dollar denominated stocks, or e currency- in many cases its illegal, in all cases, its complicated. So the safe dollar denominated haven is real estate.

Plus Argentines just feel secure owning a home, even if its a shack they built themselves in a Villa. (which, incidentally, can be sold, and almost always at a profit)

 

[GerardX]

There is no exact logic on how people afford it but many can and do find a way. Just looking at a statistic like average salaries in a country like Argentina tells you very little.

Firstly you need to remember that until a few decades ago, probably when the houses you are looking at were built in the first place, Argentina was a rich country with a real and broad middle class so a lot of this capital "wealth" still exists in some form. As as the generations who hold that wealth die off, their children and grandchildren inherit what is left and since it is difficult/ expensive to take it out of the country, they usually prefer to put it back into property instead. It's also worth remembering it is an unstable economy with ups and downs.

For example, a couple with two professional incomes, 10-15 years of saving dollars between them, perhaps some of that time living with mum and dad, working abroad for a year or two, living for free in grandma's old apartment before selling it, plus a bit of help/ loan from their families, and buying a $300k house in cash is more achievable to the "professional" class Argentine than it may look from the outside. There are also plenty of business owners out there who enjoy(ed) a few good years and park the cash they earned in property as soon as they can before their business risks going ass over heals or the money evaporates - for the unfortunate ones, they often end up being the neighbor in a fancy building who can't keep up with their expensas while everyone wonders how on earth they can afford to live where they live.

Also financing for plots of land directly with developers does exist - some you can even pay in pesos over a few years and then build in pesos (it gets even more attractive when there is a big brecha between blue and official since Argentines who save in dollars change into pesos to do such things and no one is going to ask how they "doubled their money" for such a project.) After some years when the barrio is more established and in demand you sell in dollars. I know a few with very modest professional jobs and modest savings who have done just that. This explains the boom of "countries" all around AMBA, and of course in time it creates new buyers with capital in USD to spend. Some new build apartments are also financed like this too. Mortgages do exist in pesos but attractiveness comes and goes and they are not for amounts or properties that would be of interest to most. They also exist in dollars but unless you (or your friends and family) have multi-million dollar fortunes invested in Argentina to serve as collateral, it is not an option apart from the very top segment of local buyers.

When looking at prices listed it is important to remember that supply far exceeds demand and there is no logic to many listing prices. Zero.

The building next to mine has quite a few apartments listed for sale starting at $1mm ...most of them are ugly AF inside and seem not to have been touched since the 70s or 80s (one actually has an original kitchen from the 1930-40s - as well as a newish hospital bed in the bedroom - you can smell the decay just looking at the pictures) as their "millionaire" owners must have run out cash to do them up long before dying... unsurprisingly most of these apartments have remained unsold and unoccupied with multi-million dollar price tags for at least 4 years now (They can't even find tenants to rent them, insisting on price tags of US$8000+ billete like the crown prince of fantasylandia is just going to show up and start renting, and while they are at it refurbish the whole thing?) Meanwhile, just two blocks away you can spend the same amount, or slightly less, on brand new semi-customised apartments of similar size that are truly something to look at and jam packed with amenities, views etc and selling like hot cakes.

Moral of the story, just because people put a high price tag on something does not mean it’s worth that much and it pays to shop around. If in doubt look at how long it's been listed for. Especially in today's economy. For that reason when sales do happen they are often well below the asking price (-20-30%) or they go super fast for properties with a good value to price proposition. It is ultimately driven by a sellers motivation to sell. When they don’t happen more often than not it’s the owner’s ego of "but I'm supposed to be rich" or hope that “one day” Argentina will get better - leave those ones for the crown prince and move on.

 

[RinderHerts]

Sellers can sit on homes pretty much indefinitely because, again, no 30 year mortgages. If you own the property free and clear, then its just utilities and taxes. And, comparatively speaking, the overhead cost of a $300,000 apartment here is a tiny fraction of the carrying costs of a similar apartment in the USA or Europe.
I know a couple of people (argentines) who have bought real estate during the pandemic. There are plenty of places that are pretty cheap, like well below 300k. Depends on where, how big, and how picky you are. In all of CABA, probably the majority of apartments are under 200k, many are under 100k, its just they arent in Belgrano or Recoleta. I know many argentines who live in Barracas, Monserrat, La Paternal, Parque Patricio, Flores, and similar neighborhoods in apartments that would sell for $75k to $100k right now. Yes, they are smaller, and less fancy, but for many argentines, a 1 bedroom they own is far preferable to a 2 bedroom they rent.

 

[PhelipCer]

I have worked in real estate many years in Buenos Aires now retired from that but can say clearly that the listing price of properties are just guides . Even in great markets the selling prices were much less than the listing price . I believe now you can get up to 50% off the asking price for some properties depending on need for selling etc etc . In regards to the listing prices they are and have been all over the place with no rhyme of reason . Valuations are not from a system but are based on sellers expectations which can be very delusionary . Some realtors are professional and will not take these listings but many are so deperate to take any listing that they take a very overpriced listing just to have something on their books . In regards to houses and their prices there are so many factors to determine a real price but one has to study the market for years to price this investment correctly . Apartments as well have many factors to determine their real market value . Nowadays having a balcony and a useable open terrace is very desirable and these metres can be the same price as a covered metre something unthinkable just 3 years ago before the pandemic . I live in San Carlos de Bariloche and houses are dearer in all aspects than Buenos Aires in premium areas . At least here many have stunning lake views and extremely high rental returns to justify their high prices but I cannot wrap my head around the prices of the Province of Buenos Aires where rentals in dollars are very low and no views to be had . Saying that my advice to people is if the property is overpriced in its listing value do not feel ashamed to offer 50% less and see. If you do this many times you will be successful sooner or later . 25% is common and 50% is achievable now especially in Buenos Aires province, Cordoba , and Mendoza Provinces !

Sometimes some properties are listed at a steal price from the outset due to legal problems or very urgent needs . If you see something like this and suits your needs no need to discount . My advice above is for the speculative market which is 90% of all listings online .

 

[CarliNeces]

I have a question about role of real estate agents dealing with high end properties.

I am wanting to buy a expensive property en CABA. However, the real estate agents ( a famous one) is giving all sort of road blocks to me. Can experienced members here guide me on how to tackle them, please?

Some of my issues with them which I am not sure, one how to resolve or maybe I could be totally wrong? Please guide?

1. They ( real estate agent) will not let me meet/talk/ see/ do video call with owner till day of signing the escritura. Is that how it works? ( They fear, they will get sidelined and lose their commision)

2. They are asking for a 4% commision just for the fact that they have the property and shown me once. Its a lot of money for an expensive property. What is the law of the city for this? And what services are they expected to provide to pocket 4% commission!!!!

3, They want a fees to reveal property papers to my chosen escribano. They say - it can be refunded if I have genuine reasons not to buy after sighting the papers. What is the CABA law for this?

4. I had seen the property in glorious fotos fully furnished and decorated. when I went to see the property - at least 50% of it had been removed. I still loved it. Thereafter, I asked the real estate agent - I want to buy the property as it is ( decorated) . he says its impossible. The property will be stripped naked and I would only get the walls. I said, can you allow me to speak to owner to discuss this. he said - No. Is there a way around this?

5. I am looking to buy and hold for life time. They have agreed to my proposal to lower the price in escritura by 40% from what I would actually pay. Any cons to that ( especially as I am not planning to flip or resell).

6. What is the correct percentage fees for escribano on present day. Is it based on paid price or the price as input in escritura?

7. Since its an extremely expensive property, I asked him I am ready to pay 33% immediately to show interest but I request 6 months to pay rest ( as I need to sell some property in another country to raise funds) . He laughed at me as if I was retarded. Then he ( real estate agent) declined without even consulting the owner.

8. How does one transfer cash on very high end deals like this?

9. Finally, he is not ready to lower the price even by 1 usd...from its listed price. I admist the property is damn good. I imagined we are in a bearsh market but it does not seem so.

--

Overall, I am not very happy dealing with such snarky agents. However, i really like the property very much. henceforth, my dilemma.

Can anyone advise me please on my 9 doubts.

 

[earlyretirement]

I have a question about role of real estate agents dealing with high end properties.

I am wanting to buy a expensive property en CABA. However, the real estate agents ( a famous one) is giving all sort of road blocks to me. Can experienced members here guide me on how to tackle them, please?

Some of my issues with them which I am not sure, one how to resolve or maybe I could be totally wrong? Please guide?

1. They ( real estate agent) will not let me meet/talk/ see/ do video call with owner till day of signing the escritura. Is that how it works? ( They fear, they will get sidelined and lose their commision)

2. They are asking for a 4% commision just for the fact that they have the property and shown me once. Its a lot of money for an expensive property. What is the law of the city for this? And what services are they expected to provide to pocket 4% commission!!!!

3, They want a fees to reveal property papers to my chosen escribano. They say - it can be refunded if I have genuine reasons not to buy after sighting the papers. What is the CABA law for this?

4. I had seen the property in glorious fotos fully furnished and decorated. when I went to see the property - at least 50% of it had been removed. I still loved it. Thereafter, I asked the real estate agent - I want to buy the property as it is ( decorated) . he says its impossible. The property will be stripped naked and I would only get the walls. I said, can you allow me to speak to owner to discuss this. he said - No. Is there a way around this?

5. I am looking to buy and hold for life time. They have agreed to my proposal to lower the price in escritura by 40% from what I would actually pay. Any cons to that ( especially as I am not planning to flip or resell).

6. What is the correct percentage fees for escribano on present day. Is it based on paid price or the price as input in escritura?

7. Since its an extremely expensive property, I asked him I am ready to pay 33% immediately to show interest but I request 6 months to pay rest ( as I need to sell some property in another country to raise funds) . He laughed at me as if I was retarded. Then he ( real estate agent) declined without even consulting the owner.

8. How does one transfer cash on very high end deals like this?

9. Finally, he is not ready to lower the price even by 1 usd...from its listed price. I admist the property is damn good. I imagined we are in a bearsh market but it does not seem so.

--

Overall, I am not very happy dealing with such snarky agents. However, i really like the property very much. henceforth, my dilemma.

Can anyone advise me please on my 9 doubts.

-- Yes, this is totally normal. Realtors there are always worried that you will just by-pass them and cut them out of the deal. They don't get their commission until you do at least a boleto (30% down payment). One thing you might do if the realtor won't budge (although keep in mind it might ruin your trust and relationship with them, is you could just write up a letter with your contact information on it and tell the seller you're interested in buying their property. Still, they might be suspicious and prefer to go through a broker. But in the letter, you can say that you can go through and contact your Escribano to show that you're serious.

Remember, by law, you as the buyer get to pick the escribano to be used for the transaction.

Yes, it's typically at least 3% and up to 4%. There is no law. It's what the realtor you're working with charges. Remember, they will only get half of that. They need to share 50% with the listing agent. It's the listing agent that always ends up making more money on the deal. They typically get about 2% to 3% from the seller and 50% from the buyer's realtor.

 

[AmirJacks]

I have a question about role of real estate agents dealing with high end properties.

I am wanting to buy a expensive property en CABA. However, the real estate agents ( a famous one) is giving all sort of road blocks to me. Can experienced members here guide me on how to tackle them, please?

Some of my issues with them which I am not sure, one how to resolve or maybe I could be totally wrong? Please guide?

1. They ( real estate agent) will not let me meet/talk/ see/ do video call with owner till day of signing the escritura. Is that how it works? ( They fear, they will get sidelined and lose their commision)

2. They are asking for a 4% commision just for the fact that they have the property and shown me once. Its a lot of money for an expensive property. What is the law of the city for this? And what services are they expected to provide to pocket 4% commission!!!!

3, They want a fees to reveal property papers to my chosen escribano. They say - it can be refunded if I have genuine reasons not to buy after sighting the papers. What is the CABA law for this?

4. I had seen the property in glorious fotos fully furnished and decorated. when I went to see the property - at least 50% of it had been removed. I still loved it. Thereafter, I asked the real estate agent - I want to buy the property as it is ( decorated) . he says its impossible. The property will be stripped naked and I would only get the walls. I said, can you allow me to speak to owner to discuss this. he said - No. Is there a way around this?

5. I am looking to buy and hold for life time. They have agreed to my proposal to lower the price in escritura by 40% from what I would actually pay. Any cons to that ( especially as I am not planning to flip or resell).

6. What is the correct percentage fees for escribano on present day. Is it based on paid price or the price as input in escritura?

7. Since its an extremely expensive property, I asked him I am ready to pay 33% immediately to show interest but I request 6 months to pay rest ( as I need to sell some property in another country to raise funds) . He laughed at me as if I was retarded. Then he ( real estate agent) declined without even consulting the owner.

8. How does one transfer cash on very high end deals like this?

9. Finally, he is not ready to lower the price even by 1 usd...from its listed price. I admist the property is damn good. I imagined we are in a bearsh market but it does not seem so.

--

Overall, I am not very happy dealing with such snarky agents. However, i really like the property very much. henceforth, my dilemma.

Can anyone advise me please on my 9 doubts.

Are you willing to forfeit this deposit if you can not come up with the rest of the money in 6 months? If not, that's probably why he laughed.

 

[earlyretirement]

Are you willing to forfeit this deposit if you can not come up with the rest of the money in 6 months? If not, that's probably why he laughed.

Locals just never want to wait as time= money. For them, they have witnessed lots of economic upheaval and they don't want to take it off the market for that long. Lost opportunities. To them, if you don't have all the cash, then you shouldn't be making offers. It's how they think.

I have seen times where the seller allowed a long closing period but it was right after the correlito when people were super desperate for money. It was for a big building. It was for a big American investment company. They structured it where they wanted to pay a deposit and then close within 3 months. Well, the seller smartly stipulated that for every day the buyer didn't close it was a $1,000 US dollar a day penalty. And then if the buyer didn't close within 5 months then they would lose their entire 30% boleto deposit.

They went down to the deadline and had to pay $1,000 a day penalty for a few months so in this case, the seller didn't mind too much. The property was a multi-million dollar building.

So, if you really wanted to try to get them to accept a multi-month delay then offer to structure the deal like that. Where you do a 30% boleto and then agree to pay a $XXX a day penalty for up to X months. if you don't close in time. And then if you don't close by X month then they get to keep your boleto.


I think they would still laugh at you, however they would take much more seriously. I found in living and working there in Argentina for many years, you had to get creative like this and structure things this way if you wanted to go outside the box.

But anything can happen in life. I personally wouldn't want to buy something in Argentina unless I had 100% of the cash. My advice would be to just sell your property, get the cash and then see what's for sale at that time. My guess is if this owner is so stubborn, the same property will still be on the market by that time.


And also remember all the various taxes and fees. It all adds up. Realtor's fee plus IVA tax, Escribano's fees + IVA tax, stamp taxes (3.6% - split evenly between the buyer and seller), money transfer fees, etc.

 

[CarliNeces]

Locals just never want to wait as time= money. For them, they have witnessed lots of economic upheaval and they don't want to take it off the market for that long. Lost opportunities. To them, if you don't have all the cash, then you shouldn't be making offers. It's how they think.

I have seen times where the seller allowed a long closing period but it was right after the correlito when people were super desperate for money. It was for a big building. It was for a big American investment company. They structured it where they wanted to pay a deposit and then close within 3 months. Well, the seller smartly stipulated that for every day the buyer didn't close it was a $1,000 US dollar a day penalty. And then if the buyer didn't close within 5 months then they would lose their entire 30% boleto deposit.

They went down to the deadline and had to pay $1,000 a day penalty for a few months so in this case, the seller didn't mind too much. The property was a multi-million dollar building.

So, if you really wanted to try to get them to accept a multi-month delay then offer to structure the deal like that. Where you do a 30% boleto and then agree to pay a $XXX a day penalty for up to X months. if you don't close in time. And then if you don't close by X month then they get to keep your boleto.


I think they would still laugh at you, however they would take much more seriously. I found in living and working there in Argentina for many years, you had to get creative like this and structure things this way if you wanted to go outside the box.

But anything can happen in life. I personally wouldn't want to buy something in Argentina unless I had 100% of the cash. My advice would be to just sell your property, get the cash and then see what's for sale at that time. My guess is if this owner is so stubborn, the same property will still be on the market by that time.


And also remember all the various taxes and fees. It all adds up. Realtor's fee plus IVA tax, Escribano's fees + IVA tax, stamp taxes (3.6% - split evenly between the buyer and seller), money transfer fees, etc.

Is IVA on realtor's fees and escribano fees compulsory? required by any government agency?

 

[earlyretirement]

Is IVA on realtor's fees and escribano fees compulsory? required by any government agency?

Yes, it is. It's required by law. HOWEVER, if you tell the escribano or realtor you don't need an official receipt, they many times can discount part of the IVA. But these days, with fear of AFIP, most want to declare at least part of the deal so they have justified income.

But yes, legally it's 21% IVA tax on whatever you're paying them. Some realtors for example, if you don't ask for an official invoice will make up a fake one later. If you're paying 4% commission, maybe they will say you only paid them 2% and then put some IVA on that.


Back in the day, many realtors would let you avoid the IVA and just not charge it and they wouldn't declare any income and not pay any taxes on it.

These days, AFIP is a lot smarter. They are looking at listing prices of properties and then what owners are declaring. They are looking at who the listing realtor was on that deal. And remember, Escribanos are putting their license on the line declaring a fake illegal price most times. So it's all a bit more complex now.

I've been buying real estate in BA since 2002 and things are a lot stricter now.

 

[earlyretirement]

Also, there is a lot of good advice and information on this thread. Some I agree with and some I don't. For example, I seriously doubt a seller is going to take 50% less than what they listed it. No way I see that happening. Most will negotiate some but I've never seen a seller take anything close to that much less.

Also, I will say I'd totally avoid new construction. With the exception of a big developer that has been around for a long time. I've purchased several new construction and fortunately most times it worked out as the developer was a large developer (G&D) that had a lot of experiences.

But one time, I purchased a new construction in Recoleta from a developer that had been around a while but it wasn't too big. The construction took forever (as do most. Most are severely late in getting delivered). But the developer ran out of money as materials cost skyrocketed. So at the end of the project, they basically told all the buyers that unless they paid 15% more than what was stated on the buying contracts, then it wasn't getting finished.


They said, you can sue us but that won't help you at all. It was very frustrating and there was really no recourse. They were correct, you could sue them but things move slowly in the court system and the judicial system there doesn't really work and nothing you can do any way if they declare bankruptcy.

After that, I'd never buy a totally new construction that was several years from being finished. Personally, I would just wait until it was already done or almost done. Even with a larger developer, I'd have pause. Granted, the prices are super low when you first break ground. But it's always late and with no legal recourse if they never finish.

 

[BuySellBA]

Prices are heading up on real estate as our firm predicted last year. Prices bottomed out in October 2023 and should continue to go up over the next several years. Sales volume has exploded as well. Remember there is nothing really safe for locals to invest in Argentina besides land and especially "bricks". There is still no real trust in the banking system. Things will improve under President Milei but it will be some time before there is full trust in the banking system.

The long-term rental market is working again after President Milei's much-needed common sense changes and will continue to improve. And the short-term Airbnb market is still healthy. Many of our local friends in Buenos Aires are starting to invest again in apartments and homes in Buenos Aires.

Buenos Aires real estate sales grow amid fear of rising prices - Buenos Aires Herald

The market is moving again and many properties still have prices from a decade ago, a phenomenon experts say is not likely to last

buenosairesherald.com

 

[MikeYoung]

It is getting more difficult to find properties in new developments. I visited several that are almost done and most only have a few units and they weren't discounting any prices. Is this just supply and demand now?

 

[Mitch]

I just sold my flat in Madrid! Great price. Now I am looking to buy in Buenos Aires with the proceeds. Prices here in Buenos Aires are much cheaper than in Madrid! I remember looking at properties in Buenos Aires many years ago and they were more expensive vs. now. It looks like prices came down a lot.

What is a good strategy? Would it make sense to buy 2 apartments and live in one of them and rent the other on Airbnb? Are there any better types of units that have a better ROI? Thanks.

 

[Digital Nomad]

I just sold my flat in Madrid! Great price. Now I am looking to buy in Buenos Aires with the proceeds. Prices here in Buenos Aires are much cheaper than in Madrid! I remember looking at properties in Buenos Aires many years ago and they were more expensive vs. now. It looks like prices came down a lot.

What is a good strategy? Would it make sense to buy 2 apartments and live in one of them and rent the other on Airbnb? Are there any better types of units that have a better ROI? Thanks.

Congrats on selling your property. I wish I had one to sell! Do you have enough to buy 2 apartments? I was shocked to learn there are NO mortgages or loans here. I have some savings but I had to ask my parents to loan me the difference. They believe as long as I can work remotely owning in Buenos Aires makes sense. My rent back home was very high so this makes more sense. What area are you looking in @Mitch ?

 

[Billy Goat]

Some foreigners are buying in San Ysidro. My neighbor is a realtor and she said more foreigners are buying larger $1 million homes out in the gated communities. They previously were sitting on the market with no activity and she claims 2 were sold recently to Americans.

 

[Mitch]

Some foreigners are buying in San Ysidro. My neighbor is a realtor and she said more foreigners are buying larger $1 million homes out in the gated communities. They previously were sitting on the market with no activity and she claims 2 were sold recently to Americans.

I am curious. Are there many foreigners or Americans out in the gated communities? I am just wondering why they would want to live all the way out there? As I understand it during COVID there was a big push towards big open spaces but is there still demand or interest out there?

 

[StatusNomadicus]

i suspect the government numbers and "official" earnings/savings/wealth is so far from reality after almost a century of communism/fascism. i think Argentines have way more money overall than it appears (and the people i see in many neighborhoods paying $2 USD for a can of crappy Heineken beer show me that there is a significant population of regular people who aren't hurting as much as the news media makes it seem)

and if there are almost no costs to hold a property, might be better to just sit and wait for a full offer (if it's paid-off with very cheap utilities/etc.) as @RinderHerts says

whereas in the USA with mortgage monthly costs and non-subsidized utilities, i was in a hurry to sell because the market was dropping and it was costing me money (and a risk of something breaking, etc.) daily.