What happens if Argentina gets too expensive? What are alternative cities/countries to move to when it's overpriced in Argentina?

[Uncle Wong]

Looking at our spending over the past couple of months, we're between 3 and 4k USD a month, including rent, utilities and expensas. A good bit of that was also furnishing our place, since we rented a completely empty apartment. With the furnishing expenses starting to fade, it's looking like it'll be closer to 2k-2.5k including rent and expensas for March.

Thanks for this info! I'm planning a potential move to BA, or somewhere else. I'm looking into the logistics of Spain but rentals seem to be much more there. Food is cheaper but the visa situation is more tricky vs. Argentina where you can just perpetually live forever it seems paying the overstay fee. I know that isn't ideal but I probably will do that in the beginning.

@Darksider415 is this for just you and your partner? Do you have any children? I thought maybe $1,700 for myself would be enough including rent. Do you think that is doable?

How much was your rent? Was that an easy process? I know you have a DNI but did that help? Did you have to get a guarantor? Thanks for the info.

 

[Blockchain]

Looking at our spending over the past couple of months, we're between 3 and 4k USD a month, including rent, utilities and expensas. A good bit of that was also furnishing our place, since we rented a completely empty apartment. With the furnishing expenses starting to fade, it's looking like it'll be closer to 2k-2.5k including rent and expensas for March.

If I wasn't married, I could probably pare that down to about 1100-1200/month with a modest lifestyle.

Context: Married couple in our 30s living in a 3-bed 2-bath in Colegiales.

Wow $1200 sounds crazy cheap. What does rent go for in a nice place? I heard furniture there was expensive. Did you spend a lot on the furniture and did it take a while? I met a girl that furnished a place and it took her forever! She was showing me stuff she bought and couldn't believe the prices on them.

The thing that sounds like would kill my budget in BA is going out to eat. I like going out to eat. Even in the States I go out almost every night because I hate to cook.

 

[Darksider415]

Thanks for this info! I'm planning a potential move to BA, or somewhere else. I'm looking into the logistics of Spain but rentals seem to be much more there. Food is cheaper but the visa situation is more tricky vs. Argentina where you can just perpetually live forever it seems paying the overstay fee. I know that isn't ideal but I probably will do that in the beginning.

@Darksider415 is this for just you and your partner? Do you have any children? I thought maybe $1,700 for myself would be enough including rent. Do you think that is doable?

How much was your rent? Was that an easy process? I know you have a DNI but did that help? Did you have to get a guarantor? Thanks for the info.

That's for just my wife and I, but that's also without paying super close attention to grocery expenses and with dining out once or twice a week, plus she takes yoga and acting classes, we have a personal trainer we see weekly, etc...

As for my rent, base expense is $650/month plus expensas which usually run around 200-300ish. However, when you rent an apartment that's empty in CABA, it means EMPTY. That means no light fixtures, no air conditioning, nothing. You're lucky if you get a light bulb hanging down from wires to start with.

As for renting, it wasn't bad for us, but that's because I have income en blanco in Argentina, permanent residency and I met all the qualifications to use a seguro de caución. (6 months income en blanco, DNI, etc...) If you don't have income that's fully declared in Argentina and a DNI, you're stuck on the short-term rental market.

 

[Blockchain]

That's for just my wife and I, but that's also without paying super close attention to grocery expenses and with dining out once or twice a week, plus she takes yoga and acting classes, we have a personal trainer we see weekly, etc...

As for my rent, base expense is $650/month plus expensas which usually run around 200-300ish. However, when you rent an apartment that's empty in CABA, it means EMPTY. That means no light fixtures, no air conditioning, nothing. You're lucky if you get a light bulb hanging down from wires to start with.

As for renting, it wasn't bad for us, but that's because I have income en blanco in Argentina, permanent residency and I met all the qualifications to use a seguro de caución. (6 months income en blanco, DNI, etc...) If you don't have income that's fully declared in Argentina and a DNI, you're stuck on the short-term rental market.

My Porteña friend told me the same thing! She said they didn't even have a lightbulb in the place she looked. Wierd. How do people see it at night?? I wouldn't want to rent a place without seeing what it was like at night too. I thought she was lying when she said no lightbulb but she sent me a photo and it was just the wire hanging from ceiling!

She had to find someone she knew to co-sign for her. Seems weird to have to do that for renting but I heard hard to get people out if they stop paying. She told me she couldn't get that insurance because her income is in negro. She is a waitress and they pay her under the table. How much was that seguro de caution @Darksider415 ?

 

[Darksider415]

Wow $1200 sounds crazy cheap. What does rent go for in a nice place? I heard furniture there was expensive. Did you spend a lot on the furniture and did it take a while? I met a girl that furnished a place and it took her forever! She was showing me stuff she bought and couldn't believe the prices on them.

I'll preface this with the fact I'm willing to live in places a lot of expats won't even dare. My last place I had in BA before getting married was on the edge between San Nicolás and Once to put things in perspective. It was mostly okay, though someone stole the parrilla off my rooftop patio while I was off visiting friends in Neuquén. 😂

Furniture is still an ongoing process. I just got a decent office chair from Sodimac a couple of weeks ago and it was $180 for a chair that would've been around $100 in the US. It's expensive, the quality is meh, etc... Appliances are also stupidly expensive here. For example, my Samsung washer/dryer combo unit was around $1400 when I bought it. A comparable model in Brazil would set you back roughly $650-700.

 

[Betsy Ross]

That's for just my wife and I, but that's also without paying super close attention to grocery expenses and with dining out once or twice a week, plus she takes yoga and acting classes, we have a personal trainer we see weekly, etc...

As for my rent, base expense is $650/month plus expensas which usually run around 200-300ish. However, when you rent an apartment that's empty in CABA, it means EMPTY. That means no light fixtures, no air conditioning, nothing. You're lucky if you get a light bulb hanging down from wires to start with.

As for renting, it wasn't bad for us, but that's because I have income en blanco in Argentina, permanent residency and I met all the qualifications to use a seguro de caución. (6 months income en blanco, DNI, etc...) If you don't have income that's fully declared in Argentina and a DNI, you're stuck on the short-term rental market.

You can get some great deals on long term rentals but it is a major hassle furnishing it and expensive. It is expensive to add in split ACs in each room. Furniture here is not cheap either. I didn't want to go through that so I just bought a place after I rented short term for a year. It was the best decision for me. I hated the thought of finding a new apartment every year or 2 which my friends went through.

On my first short-term rental I had to pay a year up front. I did not qualify for that insurance policy because even though I had a DNI I had no local income. They don't allow you to get it even if you have a pension or foreign sourced income. I am not sure if that is still the case.

Renting long term makes sense furnishing if you definitely know you will stay in Argentina for a while. I know some Americans that thought they would and bought furniture and now are leaving because of all the inflation and now trying to get rid of all the furniture which no one wants to pay much for used furniure.

 

[Darksider415]

Renting long term makes sense furnishing if you definitely know you will stay in Argentina for a while. I know some Americans that thought they would and bought furniture and now are leaving because of all the inflation and now trying to get rid of all the furniture which no one wants to pay much for used furniure.

We're pretty much in it for the long haul at this point. September will mark three years in BA for me and two for my wife, and I'm applying for citizenship in November, once I hit two years from the "fecha de ingreso" on my DNI

 

[Betsy Ross]

I'll preface this with the fact I'm willing to live in places a lot of expats won't even dare. My last place I had in BA before getting married was on the edge between San Nicolás and Once to put things in perspective. It was mostly okay, though someone stole the parrilla off my rooftop patio while I was off visiting friends in Neuquén. 😂

Furniture is still an ongoing process. I just got a decent office chair from Sodimac a couple of weeks ago and it was $180 for a chair that would've been around $100 in the US. It's expensive, the quality is meh, etc... Appliances are also stupidly expensive here. For example, my Samsung washer/dryer combo unit was around $1400 when I bought it. A comparable model in Brazil would set you back roughly $650-700.

🤣I have some friends that live outside of CABA and they had the same thing with someone stealing a BBQ grill off their balcony. We ain't in Kansas anymore!

My office chair was also double. I hoped that prices would come down more with import taxes eased up and they have a bit but still high. High prices and very meh quality. My Whirlpool combo was outrageous. At the time I believe it was $1750. TVs that I could get in Costco for $275 are about $750 here. I am always amazed when I visit my sister how cheap electronics in the US are.

The good thing about furnishing is it is a one and done for the most part. How long was your contract for Darksider? Hopefully long so you don't have to move any time soon. I have some friends in a new lease and the owner is crazy. They have been in a lease and only got the contract less than a year ago but the owner is raising the price double. They pay on time but locals aren't exactly good business people.

 

[Uncle Wong]

I'll preface this with the fact I'm willing to live in places a lot of expats won't even dare. My last place I had in BA before getting married was on the edge between San Nicolás and Once to put things in perspective.

Wow that area looks a bit rough. Did you live out there just for cheaper cost of living. I walked around a ton but that area I would think at night would get a bit sketchy. But I bet costs go wayyyy down once you get out of the bubble of Palermo or Recoleta.

 

[Darksider415]

🤣I have some friends that live outside of CABA and they had the same thing with someone stealing a BBQ grill off their balcony. We ain't in Kansas anymore!

My office chair was also double. I hoped that prices would come down more with import taxes eased up and they have a bit but still high. High prices and very meh quality. My Whirlpool combo was outrageous. At the time I believe it was $1750. TVs that I could get in Costco for $275 are about $750 here. I am always amazed when I visit my sister how cheap electronics in the US are.

The good thing about furnishing is it is a one and done for the most part. How long was your contract for Darksider? Hopefully long so you don't have to move any time soon. I have some friends in a new lease and the owner is crazy. They have been in a lease and only got the contract less than a year ago but the owner is raising the price double. They pay on time but locals aren't exactly good business people.

Two years, fixed in USD. The owner is very chill, and as long as she gets her greenbacks on time all is good.

Wow that area looks a bit rough. Did you live out there just for cheaper cost of living. I walked around a ton but that area I would think at night would get a bit sketchy. But I bet costs go wayyyy down once you get out of the bubble of Palermo or Recoleta.

Lower cost of living and still close to transit. I had friends living in Once at the time, so I'd walk between home and there without any real issues at midnight or 1AM. Just dress modestly, keep your head down and don't have your phone out.

 

[Uncle Wong]

We're pretty much in it for the long haul at this point. September will mark three years in BA for me and two for my wife, and I'm applying for citizenship in November, once I hit two years from the "fecha de ingreso" on my DNI

Awesome! I look forward to reading about the Citizenship process. It sounds like that is fairly easy once you have your DNI for several years and can show ties locally. I listened to a podcast of some American that went straight to Citizenship but not sure how accurate that was. He was trying to sell a consultation so not sure and didn't have any details. Was kind of sketchy. Seems like all kinds of people coming out of the woodwork trying to sell you a 2nd citizenship or permanent residency. I can't believe the amount of people and most have no names at all on their websites.

 

[CraigM]

The Economist should start a Starbucks index. I was in Vancouver, BC recently and a grande coffee was $2.15 at the current exchange rate vs $3.25 to $3.50 in most US Starbucks. Canada has high taxes and labor costs (BC especially) so I can't imagine what accounts for the difference. Eating out was also cheap.

 

[Betsy Ross]

The Economist should start a Starbucks index. I was in Vancouver, BC recently and a grande coffee was $2.15 at the current exchange rate vs $3.25 to $3.50 in most US Starbucks. Canada has high taxes and labor costs (BC especially) so I can't imagine what accounts for the difference. Eating out was also cheap.

Isn't their exchange rate in Canada brutal now? Hasn't it fallen drastically with the USD with all this tariff talk? I'd guess it's probably a drop in the exchange rate? I Wow, last time I went to Vancouver it was expensive. Interesting to hear it is affordable now. I wonder it's just because the Canadian dollar is so weak?

 

[CraigM]

Isn't their exchange rate in Canada brutal now? Hasn't it fallen drastically with the USD with all this tariff talk? I'd guess it's probably a drop in the exchange rate? I Wow, last time I went to Vancouver it was expensive. Interesting to hear it is affordable now. I wonder it's just because the Canadian dollar is so weak?

It's about C$1.45 to US$1 which is low and certainly helps make things cheap. Vancouver real estate is down from the peak China-buying period but still on the expensive side. BA real estate is a screaming bargain vs any big cosmopolitan city.

 

[Blockchain]

It's about C$1.45 to US$1 which is low and certainly helps make things cheap. Vancouver real estate is down from the peak China-buying period but still on the expensive side. BA real estate is a screaming bargain vs any big cosmopolitan city.

Yeah prices have been going up on real estate in BA. I have been watching it the past year and it continues to go up. Not skyrocketing but looks to go up about 1% to 1.5% a month. Lately many that I am looking at are selling and they were sitting on the market before. It is difficult to know what the actual prices are selling for. How close to listing prices? I can see when they remove them but not sure how much they are coming down?

In the US real estate is expensive in most big cities. BA seems cheap to me. Things like restaurants sound cheap. I read in an article yesterday about some bar closing because the owner doubled the rent on him. Are rents going up that high?

 

[Uncle Wong]

Two years, fixed in USD. The owner is very chill, and as long as she gets her greenbacks on time all is good.

Lower cost of living and still close to transit. I had friends living in Once at the time, so I'd walk between home and there without any real issues at midnight or 1AM. Just dress modestly, keep your head down and don't have your phone out.

My friends in BA kept warning me about having my iPhone out. I thought they were over reacting. BA didn't feel dangerous at all with my iPhone. Do they have a big problem with getting stolen on the street while you are walking around? I had a lot of friends tell me that they had their phone stolen but didn't seem dangerous to me at all. But I was mostly in Palermo and Recoleta.

@Darksider415 is there a problem with people stealing them on the street??

Yeah prices have been going up on real estate in BA. I have been watching it the past year and it continues to go up. Not skyrocketing but looks to go up about 1% to 1.5% a month. Lately many that I am looking at are selling and they were sitting on the market before. It is difficult to know what the actual prices are selling for. How close to listing prices? I can see when they remove them but not sure how much they are coming down?

In the US real estate is expensive in most big cities. BA seems cheap to me. Things like restaurants sound cheap. I read in an article yesterday about some bar closing because the owner doubled the rent on him. Are rents going up that high?

I think you mean this article? I was also wondering about an owner raising their rent 100%. That seems crazy. Will they get it and find a new tenant?

Argentines ditch dining out as Milei’s policies strengthen peso

President’s self-titled “shock therapy” of economic policies are making the country’s currency so expensive it’s doubled dinner tabs at restaurants that were booming not so long ago.

www.batimes.com.ar

 

[earlyretirement]

We're pretty much in it for the long haul at this point. September will mark three years in BA for me and two for my wife, and I'm applying for citizenship in November, once I hit two years from the "fecha de ingreso" on my DNI

That's awesome @Darksider415! It seems you really love Buenos Aires. I also love it. It's a great city to live in and very livable. I'll end up retiring much of the year there when my kids are out of school. One of my favorite cities in the world. No city has the energy and life that BA does.

Two years, fixed in USD. The owner is very chill, and as long as she gets her greenbacks on time all is good.

Lower cost of living and still close to transit. I had friends living in Once at the time, so I'd walk between home and there without any real issues at midnight or 1AM. Just dress modestly, keep your head down and don't have your phone out.

You still have to be careful in the Once area. My best friend was coming out of a party once and got robbed at knifepoint there. He is a local too and very big. They stole his watch. Generally I find BA fairly safe but in some of these areas you have to be careful at night.

The Economist should start a Starbucks index. I was in Vancouver, BC recently and a grande coffee was $2.15 at the current exchange rate vs $3.25 to $3.50 in most US Starbucks. Canada has high taxes and labor costs (BC especially) so I can't imagine what accounts for the difference. Eating out was also cheap.

My wife said the same thing Craig. She went to Tokyo a few months ago with my daughter and they flew through Vancouver and spent 2 nights there. She was surprised how inexpensive relative to where we live. Here in San Diego everything is crazy expensive but she thought with all the Chinese it would be more expensive. She went out to eat and also said it was not expensive.

Yeah prices have been going up on real estate in BA. I have been watching it the past year and it continues to go up. Not skyrocketing but looks to go up about 1% to 1.5% a month. Lately many that I am looking at are selling and they were sitting on the market before. It is difficult to know what the actual prices are selling for. How close to listing prices? I can see when they remove them but not sure how much they are coming down?

In the US real estate is expensive in most big cities. BA seems cheap to me. Things like restaurants sound cheap. I read in an article yesterday about some bar closing because the owner doubled the rent on him. Are rents going up that high?

Yes, prices have steadily kept going up on real estate here since mid-2023 when it bottomed out. As you said it's not drastically going up but steadily going up each month and more transactions too with sales volume. I've gotten busier and busier with people retaining my company buying. Lots of foreigners are buying in BA the past year with it picking up pace.

Prices are going for mostly 5% or less under asking price. Sellers aren't' budging much. I bought a 59 sq. meter 1 bedroom loft apartment today in Palermo Hollywood for $176,000 USD. Bigger properties are also going. I tried to buy a big PH property in Palermo Hollywood priced at $750,000 and another American beat me to it by a few days. The realtor said it went for $740,000 so not much from asking price.

@Blockchain, realtors usually pull them off once they get an offer accepted so they don't have to pay Zonaprop anymore. Prices should continue to go up. You have to remember from peak in 2017/2018 to 2023 prices fell about 50% in much of BA. Prices are still cheap for the world-class capital city BA is.

My clients that got in on pozo properties last year are up significantly as pozos keep going up in value. It's amazing because with many established developers the price per sq. meter even a few years out keeps going up and they continue to sell units as people are using money from the tax amnesty to purchase.

 

[import export]

The Economist should start a Starbucks index. I was in Vancouver, BC recently and a grande coffee was $2.15 at the current exchange rate vs $3.25 to $3.50 in most US Starbucks. Canada has high taxes and labor costs (BC especially) so I can't imagine what accounts for the difference. Eating out was also cheap.

I'm surprised to hear this. Real estate is expensive in Vancouver and the minimum wage is something like $17.50 Canadian dollars per hour or $12.50 per hour in dollars and I believe they have a minimum living wage that can take it even higher. Hard to believe Starbucks is so affordable there. $2.15 seems incredibly cheap.

That's awesome @Darksider415! It seems you really love Buenos Aires. I also love it. It's a great city to live in and very livable. I'll end up retiring much of the year there when my kids are out of school. One of my favorite cities in the world. No city has the energy and life that BA does.


You still have to be careful in the Once area. My best friend was coming out of a party once and got robbed at knifepoint there. He is a local too and very big. They stole his watch. Generally I find BA fairly safe but in some of these areas you have to be careful at night.


My wife said the same thing Craig. She went to Tokyo a few months ago with my daughter and they flew through Vancouver and spent 2 nights there. She was surprised how inexpensive relative to where we live. Here in San Diego everything is crazy expensive but she thought with all the Chinese it would be more expensive. She went out to eat and also said it was not expensive.


Yes, prices have steadily kept going up on real estate here since mid-2023 when it bottomed out. As you said it's not drastically going up but steadily going up each month and more transactions too with sales volume. I've gotten busier and busier with people retaining my company buying. Lots of foreigners are buying in BA the past year with it picking up pace.

Prices are going for mostly 5% or less under asking price. Sellers aren't' budging much. I bought a 59 sq. meter 1 bedroom loft apartment today in Palermo Hollywood for $176,000 USD. Bigger properties are also going. I tried to buy a big PH property in Palermo Hollywood priced at $750,000 and another American beat me to it by a few days. The realtor said it went for $740,000 so not much from asking price.

@Blockchain, realtors usually pull them off once they get an offer accepted so they don't have to pay Zonaprop anymore. Prices should continue to go up. You have to remember from peak in 2017/2018 to 2023 prices fell about 50% in much of BA. Prices are still cheap for the world-class capital city BA is.

My clients that got in on pozo properties last year are up significantly as pozos keep going up in value. It's amazing because with many established developers the price per sq. meter even a few years out keeps going up and they continue to sell units as people are using money from the tax amnesty to purchase.

I am looking to purchase an apartment for my lady friend but trying to isolate the search to P.H. units because there are no HOA fees. Those seem to be in demand. The issue I am finding is that many need quite a bit of work. I am not wanting to take on that task. She is having a heck of a time looking at properties. Half the time she said no one responds back.

 

[Betsy Ross]

I think you mean this article? I was also wondering about an owner raising their rent 100%. That seems crazy. Will they get it and find a new tenant?

That is the problem with many restaurants and cafes. In other cities around the world I think the leases are much longer for restaurants. Sometimes in BA they are relatively short leases as little as 2 or 3 years. Some of these places might have had leases from before Milei took over and rents were cheaper than. So it is not uncommon for leases to skyrocket up after the lease is over.

I don't understand people that would do a restaurant or bar and not lock in a longer lease.

 

[earlyretirement]

That is the problem with many restaurants and cafes. In other cities around the world I think the leases are much longer for restaurants. Sometimes in BA they are relatively short leases as little as 2 or 3 years. Some of these places might have had leases from before Milei took over and rents were cheaper than. So it is not uncommon for leases to skyrocket up after the lease is over.

I don't understand people that would do a restaurant or bar and not lock in a longer lease.

You want to hear a crazy story @Betsy Ross? When I first moved to Buenos Aires back in the early 2000's to do my startup, I came across several Americans that saw that I was successful starting a business so tried other businesses. Almost all of them completely failed. They underestimated how tough Argentina business environment is.

I met this one American female and she met with me for a consultation. She was trying to buy an apartment for herself. I gave her advice on doing that and she bought a place. She told me about a business she was going to start. I was an Entrepreneur and had started another company in the USA before moving to BA and was pretty good at figuring out if a business could make it or not so I asked her what she was going to do.

She told me she was going to start an all female gym. I told her I didn't think that would work in Buenos Aires. Then she told me the location and I told her it definitely wouldn't work. She was doing it downtown, which was majority of males working downtown. The more I heard the more I told her that wasn't a good idea.

Well it turns out she did do that gym and it flopped. But the worst thing is she leased the space on a short-term lease. I think only 3 years. She did renovations including making a bigger bathroom. Well her business flopped and I think she tried to get out of her lease early due to lack of business. But the owner was smart enough to put a clause in the contract saying if she didn't finish her lease she had to return the property in the same condition it was in. When she leased it, it was a dumpy property and she fixed it up but he held her to the lease of returning the property like it was. The lady lost a fortune on that.

Every time I hear about someone starting a business here and not owning the building on a short-term lease I think about that woman. Many leases the tenants might get a good deal but with inflation being what it is, they almost always jack up the rent after the lease ends. Many restaurants are in that situation. Not many places own their own building and they lease.