Economy Argentina isn't the affordable option

[roland]

Yes, THIS is spot on target Redpoint! Argentina is already making a push for ALL stores to require to accept debit cards. THIS is the solution. To move more towards Digital society. It works very well. I use my debit card in ALL places including taxis. They can't say no. They are NOT set up yet with foreign credit cards but if you are a local and have a debit card, it works beautifully and I'm very proud of the progress Argentina has made with this over the years. A huge leap forward.

I've offered Milei's transition team and advisors to help advise them. I hold degrees in Political Science and other degrees. I do a LOT of consulting even at Board level public companies. My advice would be a golden visa program. Get EVERY retiree from whatever country that wants to live here and meets basic financial requirements to get a retirement visa which includes DNI. Mexico has a very easy process which I've done myself personally. Make a similar program but even make it more seamless. You can easily streamline it where part of the process includes opening a free bank account instantly so they can transfer funds into it. I know it will take a LONG time for people to build up trust but you have to start somewhere.

It's already VERY easy to get a bank account at Banco Galicia (https://www.galicia.ar/personas/cuenta-gratuita-universal) once you have a DNI. I did it ALL online and over WhatsApp. I didn't have to even go into a branch. The ATM card came within 5 days to my apartment in Buenos Aires. You make it seamless like that and you can have debit cards working for EVERY local as well as foreigner coming here. It's completely FREE and takes only days to get. A huge thanks to members on BA Expats as that is where I learned about this account.

You make it so these retirees, NEVER have to pay asset taxes on assets (cash, real estate, stocks, etc) abroad outside of Argentina. Only inside Argentina and maybe even waive the property tax on their FIRST property. This will get a tremendous amount of people around the world moving here. People underestimate the amount of money that people spend on a DAILY basis. This spurs economic development and growth and helps the economy.

You would have developers all over Argentina building retirement communities for foreigners around the world. The economy would boom here as those people moving in aren't just building homes or buying properties but they are dining out, buying groceries, buying stuff and supporting the local economies.

The downside is It WILL cause real estate prices the country over to skyrocket. You'd have an influx of MANY billions of dollars from people that can't afford to live in their own countries (USA, Canada, UK, etc) and owning here. The quality of life is much better in Argentina, the health care system is much better. The food is much better. People have to think big to turn things around in Argentina.

I have tons and tons of ideas like this.

If Jesus Christ had been fortunate enough to have you as an advisor, perhaps his story would have unfolded more favorably. Unfortunately, that wasn't the case, and we've been hearing his tale of woe for over 2000 years. As for you, who's really paying attention? And, in the end, when are you going to disclose the dimensions of your... well, you know what I mean.

 

[earlyretirement]

If Jesus Christ had been fortunate enough to have you as an advisor, perhaps his story would have unfolded more favorably. Unfortunately, that wasn't the case, and we've been hearing his tale of woe for over 2000 years. As for you, who's really paying attention? And, in the end, when are you going to disclose the dimensions of your... well, you know what I mean.

Ha, ha. Yes, we always say if only we were around JC times. Hey CC I sent you some pics via WhatsApp. Ha, ha. Just kidding. It is nice chatting with you however.

 

[Rico]

Let me highlight another challenge associated with dollarization—the demand for change.

If the economy transitions to using dollars, there will be a substantial requirement for smaller denominations—1, 5, 10, 20 dollar bills, and coins, including dimes and quarters. Addressing the logistical aspects, we're talking about tens or even hundreds of tons of these small bills and coins. In addition to the significant financial investment of 30-50 billion USD for the overall process, one must also consider the sheer volume, weight, and monetary value of the small bills and coins needed for this system to function effectively. While Milei supporters might downplay these concerns, the logistical considerations are undeniably substantial.

When the European Union adopted the euro, they faced a similar situation, so many countries rounded prices to 1 euro. For example, anything under 700 pesos equaled One Dollar... LOL!

 

[Lank]

Argentina is not just affordable; it's downright economical! You can enjoy high-quality offerings at a fraction of the cost compared to the US or Europe. Whether it's exquisite fine dining, top-notch tennis coaches, golf courses, equestrian activities, hobbies, arts and culture, or medical care, you can access world-class amenities for significantly less. If you're seeking a place where you can maintain or even elevate your standards of living without breaking the bank, Argentina is truly a paradise!

 

[Travis]

When the European Union adopted the euro, they faced a similar situation, so many countries rounded prices to 1 euro. For example, anything under 700 pesos equaled One Dollar... LOL!

While this might sound appealing to those on the higher echelons of the socio-economic ladder, it could be exceedingly challenging for those on the lower rungs, including seniors.

Frankly, I'm not concerned about how things are done in Europe. If anything, I view Europe as a negative example. As for Borrell and his "garden," he can place it wherever he prefers.

 

[earlyretirement]

Argentina is not just affordable; it's downright economical! You can enjoy high-quality offerings at a fraction of the cost compared to the US or Europe. Whether it's exquisite fine dining, top-notch tennis coaches, golf courses, equestrian activities, hobbies, arts and culture, or medical care, you can access world-class amenities for significantly less. If you're seeking a place where you can maintain or even elevate your standards of living without breaking the bank, Argentina is truly a paradise!

This is totally correct. I don't get some of the arguments or disagreements on this board. When comparing cost of retirement in USA and first world countries vs. Argentina there is NO comparison. It's pretty darn inexpensive. Yeah, I get what some ex-pats are trying to say about finding X country that is EVEN cheaper. Sure, that's fine and dandy but at what cost???

I've been all around the world to cheap places and expensive places. There is a value proposition you have to ask yourself in each place you are at. Typically if it's CRAZY cheap you're giving something up in your value prop. Probably horrible weather, horrible crime, difficult to assimilate, in the middle of no where, etc.

Argentina is pretty close to a first world standard of living. I know NO OTHER city that is safe, really great quality of life, decent weather, beautiful city, great restaurants, cultural events and concerts by A players.

While this might sound appealing to those on the higher echelons of the socio-economic ladder, it could be exceedingly challenging for those on the lower rungs, including seniors.

Frankly, I'm not concerned about how things are done in Europe. If anything, I view Europe as a negative example. As for Borrell and his "garden," he can place it wherever he prefers.

I disagree with you about needing to be on the "upper rungs of the socio-economic ladder". That's kind of BS. IF you have a place to stay. See, my mother in law was retired. She only made pension of about $800 US per month. She had a pain off place so she had NO rent to pay. Her HOA monthly expenses was something. like $100 US. Food she spent very little and didn't dine out much. Utilities are almost nothing. She had some healthcare plan that was cheap. Maybe it was the free universal one. She got along fine on her $800 US per month. Could she go on trips abroad or travel? Nope, not unless I subsidized it which I did. But she perfectly subsisted in Recoleta on that meager pension.

I always say you MUST be a property owner in Buenos Aires as an ex-pat being retired and plan to live there long-term. If you bought a small place (her place she bought for $75,000 US) so we're not talking about huge savings. But you don't need a lot of money to live in Argentina if you have a paid off place.

That's the key.

 

[Rico]

Evaluate each item below on a scale of 1 to 10, comparing Buenos Aires to other cities. Personally, I consistently rate Buenos Aires at the top, especially considering my proficiency in Spanish. Give it a shot. I might give Thailand an overall score of 40, placing Argentina above Portugal or Malta in my rankings.

My choices /Try yours

1. Language 10
2. Culture 8
3. Cosmopolitan city 8
4. Health system 8
5. Connectivity 8
6. Weather 8
7. School system 8
8. Ethnicity 9
9. Migration Policies 9
10. Cost of Living 10
11. Total 85

 

[earlyretirement]

Evaluate each item below on a scale of 1 to 10, comparing Buenos Aires to other cities. Personally, I consistently rate Buenos Aires at the top, especially considering my proficiency in Spanish. Give it a shot. I might give Thailand an overall score of 40, placing Argentina above Portugal or Malta in my rankings.

My choices /Try yours

1. Language 10
2. Culture 8
3. Cosmopolitan city 8
4. Health system 8
5. Connectivity 8
6. Weather 8
7. School system 8
8. Ethnicity 9
9. Migration Policies 9
10. Cost of Living 10
11. Total 85

Mine comes to 85 so the same but I have a few different numbers. A few things are different for me. I think the healthcare system is EXCELLENT. I'm not sure what experience you've had but I've had several things but I wanted to expand about the healthcare and why I rate it as a 10. I'll point out below.

Healthcare experiences:

1) I had 2 children born in Buenos Aires. The first at Sanatoria de La Trinidad in Palermo Chico and the other was born at Sanatorio los Arcos in Palermo Hollywood. We also had a child born in San Diego and I can tell you the experience was MUCH better in Buenos Aires. From the clinical care, to the medical facilities, to the staff. In the USA it's a revolving door and they really are horrible. You're just a #'d patient in a database. NOT a person. In Argentina you're a real person.

2) I suffer from really bad migraines. I have all my life. In the USA they would never want to do any studies without first going to the gatekeeper (primary care physician). They won't do any expensive stuff without trying and trying and trying. Well, my first migraine in Buenos Aires I was on the OSDE 510 plan. I'm not sure if they still have that plan. But I was paying next to nothing to cover me and my family. I complained and within 24 hours they had me doing an MRI! You would NEVER see that in the USA.

* I do want to qualify this and say that my office manager at the time, Mariela, her father was the Director of Sanatoria de La Trinidad. That probably didn't hurt but I honestly believed I'd still get the same care even if she didn't make a phone call to her dad. But I will admit, that when we had a baby, they actually kicked someone out of the VIP room that we got for my wife and I that had a sofa bed. There was literally someone in it that was recovering from I'm not sure and they moved them to another room so we could take the room after we were born. I realize THAT was a result of my office manager's father making a phone call. We got the VIP treatment all the way when we had our first baby.

And also the guy was a very prominent guy. Cristina Kirchner was the President of Argentina at the time and she asked my office manager's dad to be the Secretary of Health for Argentina but he turned it down as he was making too much money running the private hospital. (smart man).

3) Our kids were very healthy but when we had to take them to the pediatrician for when they got sick, it was nothing short of extraordinary how wonderful the doctors are. They ALL gave us their personal Cellphone # to call them with ANYTHING we needed. I don't think that was special to us. They really do care in Argentina vs. the USA where the healthcare system is broken. I doubt you will EVER see a doctor giving you their personal cellphone # in the USA. That would be their worst nightmare.

4) When I started suffering with my extreme pain for my small fiber nerve damage and burning in my feet. I couldn't find anyone good to deal with my pain. People were charging $300 US per hour and they wouldn't take insurance. And keep in mind I have the best coverage in the USA and paying $2,700 US dollar per month for coverage to cover my, my wife and my 3 kids. That's obscene in and of itself. In Argentina the same coverage would cost about $500 US.

My therapist - Susana Olañeta - https://bacounseling.com.ar only charges $25 US per session and is amazing!! I recommended friends from the USA that were previously paying $300 per session and they said it was much better.

5) My mother in law lived in Buenos Aires for 15 years and she has had heart issues. She is on the free healthcare there and gets treated by wonderful doctors. Sometimes I pay to have her go to specialists for various things but most cnosultations are dirt cheap mostly under $40 US. Do you want to know what I spent in the USA one time when she had an epidode? THOUSANDS of dollars.

Healthcare in Argentina is 10 out of 10.

 

[dandy]

While this might sound appealing to those on the higher echelons of the socio-economic ladder, it could be exceedingly challenging for those on the lower rungs, including seniors.

Frankly, I'm not concerned about how things are done in Europe. If anything, I view Europe as a negative example. As for Borrell and his "garden," he can place it wherever he prefers.

 

[Painting]

When the European Union adopted the euro, they faced a similar situation, so many countries rounded prices to 1 euro. For example, anything under 700 pesos equaled One Dollar... LOL!

It's even more problematic. When the Euro was introduced, prices did surge initially, as you mentioned. However, due to the availability of small-denomination Euro coins, there was no persistent inflationary trend. Exact prices could be set, paid, and precise change given.

In the case of dollarization, those small-denomination coins are absent, leaving only fragile and short-lived Dollar bills. Consequently, after a few months, the issue of a lack of change arises, leading to prices being rounded up to the nearest 5 or 10 Dollars. I've encountered this firsthand in both Ecuador (formally dollarized) and Venezuela (informally dollarized). It's likely to unfold similarly here. To compound matters, official inflation calculations won't capture this phenomenon, as they assess published prices, not the rounded-up amounts. It's essentially a lose-lose situation.

 

[earlyretirement]

It's even more problematic. When the Euro was introduced, prices did surge initially, as you mentioned. However, due to the availability of small-denomination Euro coins, there was no persistent inflationary trend. Exact prices could be set, paid, and precise change given.

In the case of dollarization, those small-denomination coins are absent, leaving only fragile and short-lived Dollar bills. Consequently, after a few months, the issue of a lack of change arises, leading to prices being rounded up to the nearest 5 or 10 Dollars. I've encountered this firsthand in both Ecuador (formally dollarized) and Venezuela (informally dollarized). It's likely to unfold similarly here. To compound matters, official inflation calculations won't capture this phenomenon, as they assess published prices, not the rounded-up amounts. It's essentially a lose-lose situation.

That's really interesting Painting. That's for pointing this out. Did you live in Ecuador during this time of transition? What do you think it would have done if they didn't dollarize? Better or worse? Thanks for your intelligent thoughts.

 

[Bing Bang]

I stopped reading after around two and a half pages, particularly when I noticed a post from someone whose insights I value, suggesting that the cost of living is relative and depends on one's lifestyle, the items being purchased, and the frequency of those purchases. Another individual shared a link to the Numbeo Cost of Living Comparison by City tool.

I recall a global backpacker from years ago, whose consistent style and standard of living remain the same regardless of the country he's in. He gauges the expense of a country by the price of a bottle of Coca-Cola, considering it a standard product available almost anywhere in the world. You don't even need to consume it to use the Coca-Cola Index.

 

[Lank]

I'm acquainted with individuals residing in another South American country who were content there. However, after a visit to Buenos Aires, they were astounded by the lifestyle the city offered and how reasonably priced it was. They've now made Belgrano their home! . I can't think of any place on the planet where I can start my day with a personal training session in a fantastic gym, enjoy a nice coffee before meeting my incredible tennis coach on a Roland Garros-quality court, and then savor a delightful lunch. After some rest at home, I can head out for a round of golf, have an aperitif with my friends, and cap off the day at a Peruvian cebicheria (a genuine fine dining experience), all for less than USD 70. It may sound unbelievable, but it's true! I can provide a detailed breakdown for anyone who might doubt it.

 

[Bing Bang]

While I understand that Argentines (or natives of any country under discussion) may have valid reasons to complain about prices and the cost of living, expats like us have a greater ability to choose our place of residence. If we genuinely find things too expensive, too 'dangerous,' or simply unsuitable, we are more equipped to opt for a different location. This is in contrast to someone born in a place, potentially lacking marketable skills or the financial means to relocate. While a bit of complaining is part of human nature, expats have the luxury of leaving if they are truly discontent. Many of us have already made such transitions, moving from one country to another in pursuit of a more favorable living environment, and we have the capacity to do it again.

 

[dandy]

While this might sound appealing to those on the higher echelons of the socio-economic ladder, it could be exceedingly challenging for those on the lower rungs, including seniors.

Frankly, I'm not concerned about how things are done in Europe. If anything, I view Europe as a negative example. As for Borrell and his "garden," he can place it wherever he prefers.

Evaluate each item below on a scale of 1 to 10, comparing Buenos Aires to other cities. Personally, I consistently rate Buenos Aires at the top, especially considering my proficiency in Spanish. Give it a shot. I might give Thailand an overall score of 40, placing Argentina above Portugal or Malta in my rankings.

My choices /Try yours

1. Language 10
2. Culture 8
3. Cosmopolitan city 8
4. Health system 8
5. Connectivity 8
6. Weather 8
7. School system 8
8. Ethnicity 9
9. Migration Policies 9
10. Cost of Living 10
11. Total 85

It's even more problematic. When the Euro was introduced, prices did surge initially, as you mentioned. However, due to the availability of small-denomination Euro coins, there was no persistent inflationary trend. Exact prices could be set, paid, and precise change given.

In the case of dollarization, those small-denomination coins are absent, leaving only fragile and short-lived Dollar bills. Consequently, after a few months, the issue of a lack of change arises, leading to prices being rounded up to the nearest 5 or 10 Dollars. I've encountered this firsthand in both Ecuador (formally dollarized) and Venezuela (informally dollarized). It's likely to unfold similarly here. To compound matters, official inflation calculations won't capture this phenomenon, as they assess published prices, not the rounded-up amounts. It's essentially a lose-lose situation.

I recall in Panama, they utilized U.S. dollars as currency but had their own distinct coins.

 

[Travis]

I recall in Panama, they utilized U.S. dollars as currency but had their own distinct coins.

Really? How did that function? Did they assign random values in U.S. cents to the Panamanian coins, akin to what occurred in the UK with the former shilling coins following decimalization?

I'm not suggesting that UK coins ever had values in U.S. dollars; I'm merely drawing a parallel to how two coins from the prior system were assigned arbitrary values of 25 and 50 new pence.

 

[Painting]

That's really interesting Painting. That's for pointing this out. Did you live in Ecuador during this time of transition? What do you think it would have done if they didn't dollarize? Better or worse? Thanks for your intelligent thoughts.

No, I really don't crave that level of excitement in my life. I arrived in Ecuador well after the transition, approximately 15 years later, during the latter part of Correa's presidency. I happened to be there during the 2016 7.8 earthquake in Esmeraldas, which was quite an unexpected experience. By that time, dollarization had long been completed, and it wasn't a topic of discussion anymore.
Some economic indicators in Ecuador around the year 2000 seemed to mirror those in Argentina at the time: high inflation, around 100% p.a., and significant unemployment. However, Ecuador had also defaulted on its debt and frozen bank savings, with several banks collapsing. Dollarization became a desperate measure.
Since then, Ecuador has faced two sovereign defaults and sought assistance from the IMF. I worked there during the initial part of Lenin Moreno's term. He was a very amiable person; his daughter even lived in the same building in Guayaquil as me. Despite the criticism Correa received, his administration effectively curtailed a lot of petty corruption and streamlined government services. During his time, there were no shakedowns by traffic police, and he even mandated everyone to retake their driving tests (something Argentina could consider).
While I initially had hopes of staying longer in Ecuador due to my fantastic lifestyle, things changed after Correa left. The economy stagnated, and the projects I was involved in didn't materialize. In the tech sector, employees had to accept fewer job perks, effectively facing pay cuts. Some aspects I observed weren't reflected in official statistics—I heard many complaints about job scarcity, with comments about Ecuadoreans being replaced by more motivated Venezuelan migrants. Additionally, prices were high, especially for housing, rents, and electronic goods. For instance, I was paying USD 1750 for a 2-bedroom apartment in Samborondon, an upscale area. Change was scarce; there were some coins serving as Dollar change, but after 15 years, they were becoming rare. If my taxi cost USD 7 or 8 in the evening, I would pay 10. This rounding up affected small cash transactions, impacting those who weren't part of the banking system and made smaller purchases.

 

[AronG]

Really? How did that function? Did they assign random values in U.S. cents to the Panamanian coins, akin to what occurred in the UK with the former shilling coins following decimalization?

I'm not suggesting that UK coins ever had values in U.S. dollars; I'm merely drawing a parallel to how two coins from the prior system were assigned arbitrary values of 25 and 50 new pence.

Panama still issues its own coins known as Balboas. The exchange rate is 1:1 with the USD. Consequently, people in Panama utilize USD banknotes but use locally minted Balboa coins. This setup allows the Panamanian government to produce their own coins, avoiding the need to import quarters and dimes from the United States.

 

[earlyretirement]

No, I really don't crave that level of excitement in my life. I arrived in Ecuador well after the transition, approximately 15 years later, during the latter part of Correa's presidency. I happened to be there during the 2016 7.8 earthquake in Esmeraldas, which was quite an unexpected experience. By that time, dollarization had long been completed, and it wasn't a topic of discussion anymore.
Some economic indicators in Ecuador around the year 2000 seemed to mirror those in Argentina at the time: high inflation, around 100% p.a., and significant unemployment. However, Ecuador had also defaulted on its debt and frozen bank savings, with several banks collapsing. Dollarization became a desperate measure.
Since then, Ecuador has faced two sovereign defaults and sought assistance from the IMF. I worked there during the initial part of Lenin Moreno's term. He was a very amiable person; his daughter even lived in the same building in Guayaquil as me. Despite the criticism Correa received, his administration effectively curtailed a lot of petty corruption and streamlined government services. During his time, there were no shakedowns by traffic police, and he even mandated everyone to retake their driving tests (something Argentina could consider).
While I initially had hopes of staying longer in Ecuador due to my fantastic lifestyle, things changed after Correa left. The economy stagnated, and the projects I was involved in didn't materialize. In the tech sector, employees had to accept fewer job perks, effectively facing pay cuts. Some aspects I observed weren't reflected in official statistics—I heard many complaints about job scarcity, with comments about Ecuadoreans being replaced by more motivated Venezuelan migrants. Additionally, prices were high, especially for housing, rents, and electronic goods. For instance, I was paying USD 1750 for a 2-bedroom apartment in Samborondon, an upscale area. Change was scarce; there were some coins serving as Dollar change, but after 15 years, they were becoming rare. If my taxi cost USD 7 or 8 in the evening, I would pay 10. This rounding up affected small cash transactions, impacting those who weren't part of the banking system and made smaller purchases.

Thanks for posting all of that great info! It gives some good insights. This is what this forum is all about. Love reading these true life stories.

 

[Painting]

Panama still issues its own coins known as Balboas. The exchange rate is 1:1 with the USD. Consequently, people in Panama utilize USD banknotes but use locally minted Balboa coins. This setup allows the Panamanian government to produce their own coins, avoiding the need to import quarters and dimes from the United States.

Panama doesn't quite fit the typical scenario of dollarization. As I understand it, both the Balboa and the Dollar were established as legal tender in newly independent Panama back in 1904. While USD banknotes are in circulation (I've never encountered a Balboa banknote, if they exist), the coin issue was resolved by minting Balboa coins.