Newcomer Argentine Citizenship for parents by giving birth to child inside Argentina - Legal advice needed?

[Milkman]

Hello everyone,

I've found this group to be incredibly informative. I would greatly appreciate it if someone could address a few questions for me:

1. If I arrive on a tourist visa and my wife gives birth in Argentina, is it possible to apply for citizenship immediately for us, the newborn, and my two existing children?
2. Any insight on the expected duration of the process and obtaining citizenship, considering we have a 90-day visit visa?
3. Can we depart the country during the application process, or is it advisable to wait until the process is complete?
4. Assuming we acquire citizenship, is it possible to apply for a passport at an Argentine embassy abroad, or must it be obtained within the country?
5. Do you have any recommendations for a reputable lawyer who can expedite the process, and what are their associated charges?

Thank you in advance.

 

[Under the Radar]

1. It's advisable and I recommend applying for citizenship before the baby is born. This is not only more respectful to your wife but also safer for the baby. The other children will need to wait until one of you obtains citizenship.
2. No visa is required for your stay. The process typically takes between 6 to 13 months from your arrival if you give birth in Argentina.
3. While you can travel, it's important to note that you must maintain residence here.
4. Legal fees can vary among lawyers. In my case, the charges are $3000 USD, paid as $2000 initially and $1000 upon completion, per person for a situation like yours.

 

[earlyretirement]

Hello everyone,

I've found this group to be incredibly informative. I would greatly appreciate it if someone could address a few questions for me:

1. If I arrive on a tourist visa and my wife gives birth in Argentina, is it possible to apply for citizenship immediately for us, the newborn, and my two existing children?
2. Any insight on the expected duration of the process and obtaining citizenship, considering we have a 90-day visit visa?
3. Can we depart the country during the application process, or is it advisable to wait until the process is complete?
4. Assuming we acquire citizenship, is it possible to apply for a passport at an Argentine embassy abroad, or must it be obtained within the country?
5. Do you have any recommendations for a reputable lawyer who can expedite the process, and what are their associated charges?

Thank you in advance.

I'd recommend a very reputable immigration lawyer who has been around Buenos Aires for a long time.

Christian Rubilar - https://www.rubilarcitizenship.com/

He has many successful cases and is well respected. Not the cheapest but he seems to know his stuff.

 

[Milkman]

Thank you for the information. I have one more question.

Can my other children stay in Argentina for the next 6-13 months after my wife gives birth, considering that we will all be visiting on tourist visas?

 

[StatusNomadicus]

Christian Rubilar - https://www.rubilarcitizenship.com/

holy sh*t that website is wild! i thought BuySellBA was recommending Lorena Gallardo-Fernandez as a lawyer? (maybe i read that somewhere else) - ARCA https://argentinaresidency.com/

Rubilar's website is like an HTML myspace page, and look at this strange translation:

"What does 2 years of 'continuous residence' in Argentina mean? According to Roman Law, Supreme Court and the Federal Chambers:
1) You need to have been in Argentina for 2 years by the time your citizenship is granted. This means that you can apply the day after you arrived because citizenship is a donation and they are complete with the acceptance. This means you are an undocumented citizen since you apply before the judge but the evidence is going to be given after the 2 years are full filled.
2) Residency means that you live (are present most of the time in the country) in Argentina as a matter of fact, regardless of your legal status because every time we talk about the legal status we are debating if you are considered a slave or not, even if you do not realize it.
3) Continuous means that you did not change your address to another country. You can prove that your address has been in Argentina by demonstrating that you had the “will” to keep it in Argentina. Travelling abroad does not interrupt continuity.

Is there a requirement of permanent residency as a pre-requisite for citizenship? This requirement was abolished in 1984 for citizenship because the legal resident is the second class citizen of a dictatorship. Citizenship and residency are governed by two legal systems that work in parallel. You can choose between the two because citizenship based on possession rights is secular while legal residency has an historical religious background.

Does working “under the table” fulfil the “honest way of living” requirement of the citizenship law? Yes. This may seem surprising because it is one of the most frustrating problems that foreigners face when obtaining residency. Similar to Migraciones, federal judges request that you work legally (trabajo en blanco), as proven by a salary receipt, a CUIT or CUIL number, or a receipt of payment of taxes as a freelancer, for example. However, this is impossible to show if you do not already have legal residency. Dr. Rubilar contested the application of this requirement for obtaining citizenship, and met with success on appeal on March at the Federal Chamber of Capital Federal, Buenos Aires. The judges determined that working “under the table” qualifies as an “honest way of living” as required by Ley 346. The applicant only has to show proof of income and that the work is honest because when argentines talks about working "en negro" this means the work os slaves that always was allowed because they used to save money to buy their freedom being this the difference between catholic and protestant slavery."

---------

AR CITIZENSHIP | rubilar

www.rubilarcitizenship.com

topics covered:
1. apply day one: "You can apply for citizenship in Argentina as soon as you arrive by passing immigration sublet racial requirements"
2. Roman law means residency is slavery, but not in Argentina? USA "Constitutional law is always roman law, but the big differences are subtle because the US independence was declared by businessmen who were slave owners. This explains why they chose the Theodosian Code that is Medieval Roman Military Constitutional Law whose war prisoners status is known as slavery of infidels and foreigners explaining why paupers and slaves were banned from citizenship and why you become illegal, a fugitive running slave, if you overstay a tourist visa in the US because immigration law is military police for slaves."
3. two different legal codes: "AR institutions follow Justinian Roman Law where there are always 2 ways to achieved citizenship: one for white slaves (legal residents), one for african americans, natives and non latins."

i can't get enough of this website. is this really the top immigration lawyer in Argentina??

 

[earlyretirement]

holy sh*t that website is wild! i thought BuySellBA was recommending Lorena Gallardo-Fernandez as a lawyer? (maybe i read that somewhere else) - ARCA https://argentinaresidency.com/

Rubilar's website is like an HTML myspace page, and look at this strange translation:

"What does 2 years of 'continuous residence' in Argentina mean? According to Roman Law, Supreme Court and the Federal Chambers:
1) You need to have been in Argentina for 2 years by the time your citizenship is granted. This means that you can apply the day after you arrived because citizenship is a donation and they are complete with the acceptance. This means you are an undocumented citizen since you apply before the judge but the evidence is going to be given after the 2 years are full filled.
2) Residency means that you live (are present most of the time in the country) in Argentina as a matter of fact, regardless of your legal status because every time we talk about the legal status we are debating if you are considered a slave or not, even if you do not realize it.
3) Continuous means that you did not change your address to another country. You can prove that your address has been in Argentina by demonstrating that you had the “will” to keep it in Argentina. Travelling abroad does not interrupt continuity.

Is there a requirement of permanent residency as a pre-requisite for citizenship? This requirement was abolished in 1984 for citizenship because the legal resident is the second class citizen of a dictatorship. Citizenship and residency are governed by two legal systems that work in parallel. You can choose between the two because citizenship based on possession rights is secular while legal residency has an historical religious background.

Does working “under the table” fulfil the “honest way of living” requirement of the citizenship law? Yes. This may seem surprising because it is one of the most frustrating problems that foreigners face when obtaining residency. Similar to Migraciones, federal judges request that you work legally (trabajo en blanco), as proven by a salary receipt, a CUIT or CUIL number, or a receipt of payment of taxes as a freelancer, for example. However, this is impossible to show if you do not already have legal residency. Dr. Rubilar contested the application of this requirement for obtaining citizenship, and met with success on appeal on March at the Federal Chamber of Capital Federal, Buenos Aires. The judges determined that working “under the table” qualifies as an “honest way of living” as required by Ley 346. The applicant only has to show proof of income and that the work is honest because when argentines talks about working "en negro" this means the work os slaves that always was allowed because they used to save money to buy their freedom being this the difference between catholic and protestant slavery."

---------

AR CITIZENSHIP | rubilar

www.rubilarcitizenship.com

topics covered:
1. apply day one: "You can apply for citizenship in Argentina as soon as you arrive by passing immigration sublet racial requirements"
2. Roman law means residency is slavery, but not in Argentina? USA "Constitutional law is always roman law, but the big differences are subtle because the US independence was declared by businessmen who were slave owners. This explains why they chose the Theodosian Code that is Medieval Roman Military Constitutional Law whose war prisoners status is known as slavery of infidels and foreigners explaining why paupers and slaves were banned from citizenship and why you become illegal, a fugitive running slave, if you overstay a tourist visa in the US because immigration law is military police for slaves."
3. two different legal codes: "AR institutions follow Justinian Roman Law where there are always 2 ways to achieved citizenship: one for white slaves (legal residents), one for african americans, natives and non latins."

i can't get enough of this website. is this really the top immigration lawyer in Argentina??

I have recommended several lawyers. Not just one. I do NOT agree with many things Mr. Alguilar says or does. But he has successfully received citizenship for many people staying in Argentina illegally which this OP sounds like he might be attempting to do.

I prefer to do everything legally but the OP sounds like more of the refugee type in which case I think this type hires him. Many Chinese illegal immigrants he has gotten citizenship from what I read.

Me personally don’t agree with overstaying on a tourist visa or strategic pregnancy to get citizenship. But to each their own.

 

[StatusNomadicus]

@Milkman the Rubilar cost of citizenship is $7000 USD if you go that route. he posts "confirmed" citizenship awards here, mostly Russian it seems. https://www.rubilarcitizenship.com/_files/ugd/699fae_f81696eac5264962bbf9fbe9dbc10059.pdf

 

[Pink Panther]

@Milkman the Rubilar cost of citizenship is $7000 USD if you go that route. he posts "confirmed" citizenship awards here, mostly Russian it seems. https://www.rubilarcitizenship.com/_files/ugd/699fae_f81696eac5264962bbf9fbe9dbc10059.pdf

$7,000??? Holy crap. That is a lot. Does anyone know what others charge? Good for him. Supply and demand but wow that is one ugly website!! LOL. Yes, he posts on the old forum. He has helped a lot of Chinese people and it sounds like Russian too.

 

[Under the Radar]

Thank you for the information. I have one more question.

Can my other children stay in Argentina for the next 6-13 months after my wife gives birth, considering that we will all be visiting on tourist visas?

Yes, that is not an issue. Argentina is a very generous country for people planning to "milk "the system like you. Ha. No pun intended!

 

[FuturoBA]

$7,000??? Holy crap. That is a lot. Does anyone know what others charge? Good for him. Supply and demand but wow that is one ugly website!! LOL. Yes, he posts on the old forum. He has helped a lot of Chinese people and it sounds like Russian too.

$7k actually doesn't sound like too much. For citizenship, I don't know anything much about other countries but where else can you find a cheaper option? And from my understanding Mr. Rubilar has a unique way of obtaining citizenship for his clients directly where as others push for residency first prior to citizenship (and to charge twice?) or the very least it would extend the process. And appears his services would be especially useful for those who don't qualify for one of the immigration visas (rentista, pensionado, work etc).

I'm no expert but this is what I've gathered and with ARG being as complicated as it is, please anyone correct anything I that state.

 

[Canada Goose]

$7k actually doesn't sound like too much. For citizenship, I don't know anything much about other countries but where else can you find a cheaper option? And from my understanding Mr. Rubilar has a unique way of obtaining citizenship for his clients directly where as others push for residency first prior to citizenship (and to charge twice?) or the very least it would extend the process. And appears his services would be especially useful for those who don't qualify for one of the immigration visas (rentista, pensionado, work etc).

I'm no expert but this is what I've gathered and with ARG being as complicated as it is, please anyone correct anything I that state.

I thought the same thing @FuturoBA! It sounds like the other way you have to do things twice? I'm debating if it makes sense to get a DNI but there are tax consequences under the current set up. I LOVE @BuySellBA idea for Golden Visa Passport! That sounds well through out and genius!

I didn't think $7k was too bad either but I don't know what the others would charge to do the same thing with the ultimate goal of getting an Argentine passport.

What I gathered from reading old posts from the old forum is that most people that hire him are here illegally or something. But I guess in theory you could hire him to do it correct from the start and he would apply his same time tested methods. He seems to know the law well.

 

[StatusNomadicus]

$7k actually doesn't sound like too much

true, if you're absolutely sure you want a passport. looks like Celano would be 8000 total, if my math is correct:

$3000 USD for Celano/WhereCanILive partner (1500 down, 1500 when granted), payable in Zelle, for permanent residency. $5000 USD for citizenship, 2 years later. flat rate, “success fee.”

https://www.facebook.com/celanolaw/posts/pfbid02mHfw17gDJW8wJiRzKiuZmpNrpeAm2Fhb18781rgkGnS2h4xhsR6EHspJwzehoErNl

Can't find a price for ARCA/Lorena Gallardo even though i've been emailing them for days www.ArgentinaResidency.com but they don't do citizenship applications, at all.

can't remember the price for asesoria internacional/Manuel Alvarez and i don't have much other info

 

[FuturoBA]

true, if you're absolutely sure you want a passport. looks like Celano would be 8000 total, if my math is correct:

$3000 USD for Celano/WhereCanILive partner (1500 down, 1500 when granted), payable in Zelle, for permanent residency. $5000 USD for citizenship, 2 years later. flat rate, “success fee.”

https://www.facebook.com/celanolaw/posts/pfbid02mHfw17gDJW8wJiRzKiuZmpNrpeAm2Fhb18781rgkGnS2h4xhsR6EHspJwzehoErNl

Can't find a price for ARCA/Lorena Gallardo even though i've been emailing them for days www.ArgentinaResidency.com but they don't do citizenship applications, at all.

can't remember the price for asesoria internacional/Manuel Alvarez and i don't have much other info

Old forum mentioned mentioned a Dr. Agustín Nicolás Beaudean

Services - Agustín Nicolás Beaudean LL.B. Migration Lawyer in Argentina

Besides legal residence requests in the Migrations Office (DNM), there are numerous situations in which foreigners may need legal assistance.

agustinnicolasbeaudean-eng.weebly.com

At the time it was mentioned to be ~$1k but not sure for what services specifically.

 

[StatusNomadicus]

i should clarify: i'm not sure if Celano Abogados charges 5K total, or 3K residency plus 5K citizenship, since their office is a clusterfuck and i've lost contact with them (luckily before i paid the 1500 USD zelle) and have been horrified at the service they (don't) provide. but i could be corrected to be 5K total, less than the 7K, but it would still be 4+ years rather than the other 7K's 2 years.

 

[VINO]

i should clarify: i'm not sure if Celano Abogados charges 5K total, or 3K residency plus 5K citizenship, since their office is a clusterfuck and i've lost contact with them (luckily before i paid the 1500 USD zelle) and have been horrified at the service they (don't) provide. but i could be corrected to be 5K total, less than the 7K, but it would still be 4+ years rather than the other 7K's 2 years.

That is why I think @earlyretirement did not mention ARCA. They did my friend's DNI too many, many years ago. The one he mentioned above used to post on the old forum quite a bit but I just think probably most expats are here on tourist visas and too cheap to pay so he stopped posting. It sounds like mostly it's Chinese that were hiring him before. He used to post about a lot of cases.

I also don't find his fee too bad if he is guaranteed to get citizenship. I'm not sure as I haven't contacted him. When he stopped posting I thought he retired.

 

[FuturoBA]

That is why I think @earlyretirement did not mention ARCA. They did my friend's DNI too many, many years ago. The one he mentioned above used to post on the old forum quite a bit but I just think probably most expats are here on tourist visas and too cheap to pay so he stopped posting. It sounds like mostly it's Chinese that were hiring him before. He used to post about a lot of cases.

I also don't find his fee too bad if he is guaranteed to get citizenship. I'm not sure as I haven't contacted him. When he stopped posting I thought he retired.

ARCA from what I've gathered deals with immigration, the OP was asking about citizenship. My understanding is those are two different processes. Immigration goes through migraciones, citizenship goes through the courts(Federal?)

 

[Spend Thrift]

You have to love a forum where someone is asking to strategically have a kid in the country so they can strategically get citizenship. We live in strange times.

 

[Uncle Wong]

I met a Chinese couple that were here illegally and they said they used that lawyer discussed above. They were going to get deported or something and not only did they get to stay but Mr. Aguilar got them Citizenship.

 

[StatusNomadicus]

We live in strange times.

though "Anchor Baby" may be a new term and a bit condescending for some https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchor_baby

...the idea of having a kid in another jurisdiction certainly isn't new. Stanford University Press has an entire history of birthright citizenship, including how in the 1980s the US Supreme Court decided that parents can get citizenship, too, along with their baby. https://www.google.com/books/editio..._Challenge_of_Birth/OY5HDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1

and for migrants, who wouldn't want to have a kid somewhere like Switzerland, where citizenship confers a valuable passport, great social safety net, and your child will probably speak Swiss German, High German, French, and English (if not more) by the time they are adults? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6647303/

the birthright citizenship is documented from at least 1898 in the USA. no one wonders why millions of immigrants are crossing the dangerous Mexico-USA border; once you get here, you're 99% better off than you were before (upper class in Bolivia aren't paying coyotes to take them on a risky trip; they have no economic desperation). "it's been explicitly stated by the Supreme Court [...] As of 1982, based on the current legal and judicial interpretation of the 14A, all children born on U.S. soil are considered to be American citizens, regardless of their parents' immigration status, unless they fall into a few still relevant specific categories: children of foreign diplomats, children of foreign nationals here on non-resident business visas, and children of alien enemies in times of foreign occupation. Thus, there's zero legal grounds for even attempting to revoke the concept of birthright citizenship."

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/9snl6v

google "Jus sanguinis" or "Jus soli" for more info. certainly not weird times, just the Internet making what has always existed a bit easier to verify (and strategically plan a birth somewhere, to give your family a better life)

 

[Jeb Spencer]

though "Anchor Baby" may be a new term and a bit condescending for some https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchor_baby

...the idea of having a kid in another jurisdiction certainly isn't new. Stanford University Press has an entire history of birthright citizenship, including how in the 1980s the US Supreme Court decided that parents can get citizenship, too, along with their baby. https://www.google.com/books/editio..._Challenge_of_Birth/OY5HDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1

and for migrants, who wouldn't want to have a kid somewhere like Switzerland, where citizenship confers a valuable passport, great social safety net, and your child will probably speak Swiss German, High German, French, and English (if not more) by the time they are adults? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6647303/

the birthright citizenship is documented from at least 1898 in the USA. no one wonders why millions of immigrants are crossing the dangerous Mexico-USA border; once you get here, you're 99% better off than you were before (upper class in Bolivia aren't paying coyotes to take them on a risky trip; they have no economic desperation). "it's been explicitly stated by the Supreme Court [...] As of 1982, based on the current legal and judicial interpretation of the 14A, all children born on U.S. soil are considered to be American citizens, regardless of their parents' immigration status, unless they fall into a few still relevant specific categories: children of foreign diplomats, children of foreign nationals here on non-resident business visas, and children of alien enemies in times of foreign occupation. Thus, there's zero legal grounds for even attempting to revoke the concept of birthright citizenship."

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/9snl6v

google "Jus sanguinis" or "Jus soli" for more info. certainly not weird times, just the Internet making what has always existed a bit easier to verify (and strategically plan a birth somewhere, to give your family a better life)

Thank you for the constant lessons! I mean that. I learn a lot of things from your posts. I never hear of the term anchor baby so I learned my new thing for the day. I actually think it's wonderful that people can openly share information about being an anchor baby. I can't imagine growing up without the internet era. Things would have been slow and painful then.