This aptly captures the essence of neoliberalism. It aligns precisely with the principles embraced by the incoming government that Argentines have chosen (though we're still awaiting their official assumption of office and the commencement of decision-making processes).
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Is the Expat party in Buenos Aires coming to an end?
- Thread starter earlyretirement
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StatusNomadicus
Well-known member
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StatusNomadicus
Well-known member
and there's the Good-versus-Evil mindset of a Socialist; everyone is heartless, other than their tribe. Sowell said this phenomenon was called "Being on the side of the Angels" in Avocado's case.
i see a lot of compassion, selfless helping of others, altruism, passion for Argentina, willingness to help the less-fortunate, and hope for a brighter future on this forum...for anyone not lost in the mire of resentment that has captured Avocado, who i fear is unwilling to consider new ideas, i highly recommend reading or audiobooking "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" by another genius investor like earlyretirement (this author's name is Robert Kiyosaki, a former US Marine, current investor, and philanthropist) https://www.amazon.com/Rich-Dad-Poor-Teach-Middle/dp/1612680194
earlyretirement
Moderator
Rich Dad Poor Dad is a GREAT book. It was one of the first books I read after college that dealt with real estate. I started buying real estate in my 20's and it was a pathway to financial freedom to me. If you are buying real estate in the best locations, it will do well over the long haul for both cash flow and capital appreciation. It's been a winning formula for me for the past few decades in many different countries.
StatusNomadicus
Well-known member
if it doesn't end up being cheap for us, there are thousands of cities where the cost of living is good, depending on what money your income/wealth is in. Indonesia has Bali, Eastern Europe has tons of affordable places, etc.
Che Vos
Well-known member
I think if the locals can swing it then all of you relatively wealthy expats (in comparison to locals) can swing it too. Honestly, once you have a principle apartment paid for, you can manage to live here affordably. My mom and dad have road through many economic cycles. They don't make too much money but they own their own house and don't have to worry about losing it.
The key in Buenos Aires is to own your own property to ride out the cycles. I should have listened to my parents and bought something. Now, I'm trying to get a loan from my parents and grandparents to quickly buy something now while prices are lower.
What makes you sure? I lived in Buenos Aires through the Menem era. The price of real estate was certainly cheaper but the day-to-day cost of living were generally comparable to the USA. A lot of things were more expensive here in Argentina back then.
Cerveza
New member
I remember those days! It would require successful dollarization and massive foreign investment. Anything is possible of course, I just don’t see it. Time will tell. At least not happening in the near-term.
Betsy Ross
Well-known member
It appears that the term "expats" is used to encompass three distinct groups, leading to a questionable classification. In Argentina, the first group comprises longer-term tourists who stay for 3 to 24 months, drawn by favorable conditions in the early 2000s. However, their numbers have not been as significant as in other popular destinations like Mexico or Thailand. The recent influx of Russians is likened to this category, as they are temporary refugees seeking refuge in Argentina but ultimately plan to settle in cities like Miami, London, NYC, or Paris.
The second group consists of retirees from affluent countries, though their overall numbers are relatively small. Despite dominating online platforms, the actual count in the Buenos Aires metropolitan area may be modest, likely not exceeding a few thousand.
The third group represents genuine expatriates who have come to Argentina for a better economic situation than their home countries. This includes individuals from various backgrounds, such as Paraguay, Bolivia, Venezuela, Africa, and Syria, engaged in diverse occupations like cab driving, produce selling, restaurant ownership, and street vending. While the total expat population in Argentina is estimated at 5% of the overall population, the majority of these expats, around 1.8 million out of 2 million, are not motivated solely by cost but rather by the prospect of improving their financial situation. They are more likely to establish roots and contribute to the country's long-term dynamics.
In contrast to cities like New York, where 40% of the population is born in another country, Buenos Aires has a much lower proportion, approximately 3%. Despite historical ties to immigration, the current expat presence seems limited and not a significant influence on the city's character. The reality is that the expatriate community in Buenos Aires has consistently been small, primarily composed of individuals driven by love or possessing the financial means to weather any challenges—a far cry from the vibrant atmosphere associated with destinations like Bali.
The second group consists of retirees from affluent countries, though their overall numbers are relatively small. Despite dominating online platforms, the actual count in the Buenos Aires metropolitan area may be modest, likely not exceeding a few thousand.
The third group represents genuine expatriates who have come to Argentina for a better economic situation than their home countries. This includes individuals from various backgrounds, such as Paraguay, Bolivia, Venezuela, Africa, and Syria, engaged in diverse occupations like cab driving, produce selling, restaurant ownership, and street vending. While the total expat population in Argentina is estimated at 5% of the overall population, the majority of these expats, around 1.8 million out of 2 million, are not motivated solely by cost but rather by the prospect of improving their financial situation. They are more likely to establish roots and contribute to the country's long-term dynamics.
In contrast to cities like New York, where 40% of the population is born in another country, Buenos Aires has a much lower proportion, approximately 3%. Despite historical ties to immigration, the current expat presence seems limited and not a significant influence on the city's character. The reality is that the expatriate community in Buenos Aires has consistently been small, primarily composed of individuals driven by love or possessing the financial means to weather any challenges—a far cry from the vibrant atmosphere associated with destinations like Bali.
Avocado
Well-known member
I think the original poster is saying it's a party because prices are so low now if you have Dollars, Euros, Sterling, etc.
Huge Hurry
Member
Many perma-tourists and digital nomads might choose to settle down here if they could maintain their remote work arrangements. Personally, I would consider making this place my permanent residence if I could continue working for my company, and I am contemplating transitioning to a contractor role to make it feasible. The prospect of establishing roots appeals to me more than the current routine of frequenting new Airbnbs for short periods. They key for me if I were to live here full time is it's essential to purchase an apartment. Even if it's a small apartment, I'm figuring out that I can no longer count on Airbnb's.
For the first time I am considering pulling out money from my IRA to self-direct it and buy an apartment. I just talked to a consultant and he explained that many of his clients are doing that now. If I stay in Buenos Aires it will be purchasing my own property.
Betsy Ross
Well-known member
It's not as cheap as 2002-2008, when it was EXTREMELY cheap. I knew an American struggling teacher who bought an apartment on the in Palermo Viejo for $40,000 and very close to Palermo Soho. That was the time of expats really living it up and partying! Even with inflation adjusted dollars, real estate isn't cheap like back then.
earlyretirement
Moderator
This is correct. Real estate was VERY VERY cheap then. Starting in 2002, I started purchasing millions upon millions of dollars. I set up an investment company and then it became well-known around the world. (See - https://buysellba.com/news-/-media?blogcategory=ApartmentsBA)
I was buying studio apartments in high-rise buildings - https://buysellba.com/palermo-soho-studio for as little as $47,000. It was crazy how great of a deal it was. In inflation-adjusted dollars $47,000 back then was like $78,600 now - https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/
I sold those units for $200,000 @ at the peak in 2018 and 2019.
I find it difficult to comprehend how anyone can genuinely believe that it's affordable here. The primary expenses, particularly food, have surged to unprecedented levels in US dollars. The cost of decent parillas has skyrocketed to a minimum of US $20 per person, and if you choose to dine at Don Julio, be prepared to shell out a hefty US $80 per person. Don Julio used to be an absolute steal until 2021, with a normal price of US $20, but now it has become four times more expensive.
Man on the Moon
Active member
I frequent steak joints where a steak costs around $7, and I can easily share it with a friend. The bus fare is just six cents to reach the place, and after a satisfying meal, I can either go dancing for $2 US Dollars or attend the opera for under $10—it depends on one's preferences. While Don Julio is fantastic, is it truly seven times better than some other place? Oh hell NO.
In essence, the expat celebration persists for those content with savoring any steak on their plates.
Betsy Ross
Well-known member
Clearly, it's all relative. Your perspective depends on what you consider "normal," your financial situation, and your lifestyle. In our case, we dine out a couple of times a week and cook at home the rest of the time. Groceries here are a fraction of what we paid in Washington State. For instance, a good blue cheese that used to cost $25 per pound is significantly cheaper, and organic vegetables are at least three times less expensive. Items like milk, chicken, and eggs are also much more affordable.
While I used to think Don Julio was overpriced, we've found that dining well for $10 to $15 per person is quite feasible at relatively upscale places in the last few months. Contrast that with the U.S., where a tavern burger can be $20, and a beer costs $8. We purchased our apartment in 2007, so rising rents don't factor into our budget. ABL taxes for our apartment here are a fraction of what we paid in the U.S., and utilities are remarkably inexpensive compared to the States.
For someone accustomed to budgeting for U.S. prices, living here is cheap. However, it's undoubtedly very expensive for the majority of the population earning in pesos (approximately 95%).
A recent visit to Franca, a Michelin-listed restaurant, reflected the most we've spent on a meal in three months – 50,000 pesos. This included a superior bife, outstanding side dishes like asado-grilled asparagus and cordero tataki, a generous salad with organic greens, and an irresistible dessert. While we generally don't drink at restaurants, contributing to the lower cost, a comparable meal in Seattle would easily cost triple. In Seattle, fixed-price restaurants with $100 meals and a $68 wine flight are not uncommon, and prices in NYC are even higher.
In general, people living here, whether Argentine or expat, may have outdated notions of North American prices. Living expenses such as food, utilities, transportation, and healthcare are significantly cheaper here than in the U.S. when considering the exchange rate. However, the challenges faced by those earning pesos are substantial.
Jeep
Active member
I, too, realize that my perception of prices is outdated. I came across a roast chicken priced at 6500 pesos here, and my initial reaction was that it's almost comparable to the cost in the USA. However, a friend in the U.S. informed me that a similar chicken would now be $13. Admittedly, I rarely purchase them back home.
Those from places like Senegal and Venezuela are economic refugees. They will likely become citizens. These cannot be considered expats in the same way that people who post here are expats. These poor immigrants were never having a party. Many of those who post here have hard currency, mostly dollars, come from developed countries like the USA and UK and could very well stay and live where they came from. They aren't street salesmen or Uber drivers. Instead they came to Argentina where they have moeny to dine out frequently and discuss which high end parrilla is the best.
This is all true. A glass of wine in NYC is easily U$S 15 or more plus 30% tax and tip. That's for a glass. The subway is U$S 2.90. London is £2.50 off peak zone 1 base fare which is more expensive. DON JULIO shouldn't be the metric. But if it must be, compare it with a place like Rules in London where a cocktail costs £18 - and there are far more expensive restaurants in London. Home prices? In the millions of £
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