Newcomer Who's considering it after thinking they would never...?

[AllCruz]

Been here since early 2007. Have spoken positively and negatively on this forum of a city I have come to dearly love. I met my husband early on, and we never talked about making a move to the States. Never. We were happy here. We still are if we can manage to momentarily separate ourselves from all the chaos the government continues to throw at us (and everyone). We have a good life here. Family (his), friends, property, my job. He was let go after 15 years at a bank a little over a year ago and has really struggled to find something since then. I'm just wondering if there are people in our boat who have either made the move after doubting it or are currently having doubts while planning an escape route just in case? I read about everyone who can't wait to leave and who is planning to leave, but we haven't taken that mental jump yet. I guess it's really hard to picture us in the States. Just for more info, any potential move would be to Austin, Texas, back closer to my family and safety and the Hill Country and oh the list could go on. But I'll be honest. I don't picture us there. I'm worried about his English (decent but extremely far from fluent), about work, about him missing his country, family and friends even though he says he's ready for a change...

Anyway, I've just been really torn. You would think I would be excited that the Argie is the one ready to leave and make a life near MY home, but I'm nervous, and if you've been there too, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

 

[Mart]

What does your husband do? Would there be job opportunities for him there?

Honestly, we probably won't leave b/c the SO has the house and business here. But if the property sold, I think we both would go to the US happily.

I, like you, have many things I love about being here. But honestly, it's harder and harder to live here every day. It's not like you can avoid all the restrictions and price increases and freedoms to travel, to do what you want with your money, etc, etc. And while I'm not unhappy, I just find myself tired all the time. Tired of waiting in lines. Tired of taking 3 hours to do a simple chore because that's what it takes. Tired of going to 28273 different places in order to get something done. Tired of bad quality. Tired of paying a fortune for basic things. Am I miserable? No - I love my SO, his family, our home, spending time with friends. But the happiness I have isn't about being in Argentina, it's about being with him. The where isn't that important.

Allcraz - I guess I would ask yourself is there anything really holding you here? After all, you moved here and had a great experience. What's to say your husband wouldn't feel the same being in the US? And if you go and try it and hate it, you can *always* come back here. It's not like Argentina is going anywhere. And maybe by the time you come back, the insanity will have ended....

 

[GraysPeack]

Know how you feel.
It's a big leap and I'm in the same boat really. I'm a Brit and my lady is Argentine.
Long story short.....too many family ties to allow us to go at the moment, so we'll have to weather the storm for another 2 to 3 years.
It's certainly on the agenda though, but needs some serious planning.

 

[AllCruz]

Mart, as far as jobs go, I have no idea. We haven't started looking, but I know Austin isn't the worst place to be looking for work right now. I'm 29. He's 38. His degree is in Administración de Empresas and I came here with a college degree but still no experience in my major so far (Marketing). I've done well for myself here, and if I can do that here I feel confident I can make ammends in my own country. Ha, oh a little detail I left out. I'm pregnant with our first child. I know that the pregnancy has made me doubt our life here even more...there are just things I can't get over when thinking about raising a child here. The States has its faults. I am well aware of that, but when you start thinking about raising a family, you start comparing a lot more and there are certain factors that just weigh more heavily. We wouldn't be going anywhere until after the baby's born (early next year). But man that growing belly makes you do a lot of thinking. As far as property goes, one of our 2 is on the market, but it's not a deciding factor in whether or not we can move. If we got more serious about moving, we would talk to contacts about selling it to a buyer abroad (in the States). I suppose the only thing holding us/me back is fear (and believe me, I never thought I would ever fear moving back to my own country). I appreciate everyone's thoughts. Thank you.

 

[KurtLard]

I've discussed the details in another thread, the reasons cited here plus crime and the fact that Microsoft made a fantastic offer convinced us to move. The crime rate is terrible in Buenos Aires, and its gotten bad here, 500 miles north, in Corrientes too. Our backup generator was stole from the garage, my wife's purse was stolen while she was riding in a cab stuck at a traffic light, our closest friend had his windshield stolen at gunpoint a few nights ago. They cut it out using a box-cutter, ripped out his (broken) stereo, and ran off into the night. We are very concerned about the safety of our children, their welfare is my wife's biggest issue.

One thing to keep in mind: if you're going to the US your husband will need an immigrant visa and/or greencard. The visas are taking 6-10 months these days, the greencards a year or two. Its a complex process, Microsoft hired attornies for us and paid almost all the fees, otherwise I believe it would have cost us 5 to 10 thousand dollars.

 

[earlyretirement]

I've discussed the details in another thread, the reasons cited here plus crime and the fact that Microsoft made a fantastic offer convinced us to move. The crime rate is terrible in Buenos Aires, and its gotten bad here, 500 miles north, in Corrientes too. Our backup generator was stole from the garage, my wife's purse was stolen while she was riding in a cab stuck at a traffic light, our closest friend had his windshield stolen at gunpoint a few nights ago. They cut it out using a box-cutter, ripped out his (broken) stereo, and ran off into the night. We are very concerned about the safety of our children, their welfare is my wife's biggest issue.

One thing to keep in mind: if you're going to the US your husband will need an immigrant visa and/or greencard. The visas are taking 6-10 months these days, the greencards a year or two. Its a complex process, Microsoft hired attornies for us and paid almost all the fees, otherwise I believe it would have cost us 5 to 10 thousand dollars.

Absolutely I totally agree with EVERYTHING you mentioned about the crime. I think some people are still in denial just because nothing happened to them YET.

But things are deteriorating and truly have for the past two years. I've had the same kind of things happen to my friends. Cars broken into, stereos stolen (and one of my friends even had his tires stolen off his car parked in the street in a nice part of Palermo not long ago).

I've had other friends that had their windows smashed at a stoplight and had their purses stolen by motorcycle thieves.

No way I was going to stick around in Argentina and raise my kids there. I'm extremely happy I moved out last year and the USA is a great place to raise kids. VERY safe here.

The only thing I'd disagree with is that it's so expensive to get a green card for your spouse. I read a few posts from others that also reported problems. I'm still puzzled at this because my wife and I started the process at the US Embassy in Buenos Aires and it couldn't have been simpler.

Of course, we had all the documentation that you'd need. Bank statements, tax records (I showed all my tax forms for the entire time I lived in Argentina) as well as many other forms/documents and we didn't have any problems at all getting her green card. I did it all myself with no attorneys involved.

I'm confident you will be VERY happy with your decision to move back to the USA, especially if you already have a job lined up.

 

[earlyretirement]

Been here since early 2007. Have spoken positively and negatively on this forum of a city I have come to dearly love. I met my husband early on, and we never talked about making a move to the States. Never. We were happy here. We still are if we can manage to momentarily separate ourselves from all the chaos the government continues to throw at us (and everyone). We have a good life here. Family (his), friends, property, my job. He was let go after 15 years at a bank a little over a year ago and has really struggled to find something since then. I'm just wondering if there are people in our boat who have either made the move after doubting it or are currently having doubts while planning an escape route just in case? I read about everyone who can't wait to leave and who is planning to leave, but we haven't taken that mental jump yet. I guess it's really hard to picture us in the States. Just for more info, any potential move would be to Austin, Texas, back closer to my family and safety and the Hill Country and oh the list could go on. But I'll be honest. I don't picture us there. I'm worried about his English (decent but extremely far from fluent), about work, about him missing his country, family and friends even though he says he's ready for a change...

Anyway, I've just been really torn. You would think I would be excited that the Argie is the one ready to leave and make a life near MY home, but I'm nervous, and if you've been there too, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

First of all, congratulations on the news of the baby. You will find that is probably the greatest thing you will ever do (become a parent). It totally changed my life and is my greatest job in life being a parent. So congrats on that front!

Here is my take and 2 cents on this. You can have a great quality of life in both places. I lived in Argentina since 2003 and only moved out last year. I had a great quality of life in Argentina.

I had wonderful life long true friends in Buenos Aires. I had wonderful family (my wife's family) living there. We owned our property outright and lived in a great place in a great part of town. We had a full time maid that made life easier doing all the laundry, all the cleaning everyday, cooked all the meals, went to the dry cleaners for me, paid bills, etc.

When we moved out, I wasn't one of those bitter people that was antsy and anxious to move back to the USA. I truly loved many aspects of Argentina but things just started annoying me. Back then there weren't even all the restriction and controls that there are now. But I felt they were coming soon..which we can see came true.

The big wildcard and motivating factor for me to move was having kids. My kids were both born in Argentina and it will always be a special place to all of us.

But I started also noticing an uptick in crime and more and more friends report things happening to them. I honestly didn't want to have to worry about something happening to my kids and that is what got me motivated to move back to the USA.

I grew up in the big house with the white picket fence and I also wanted to give that to my kids. It's almost impossible to have that without going far outside of Buenos Aires which I had NO desire to do.

In both places you have great quality healthcare if you have a great insurance plan. So on that point you can get great quality healthcare both in the USA and Argentina.

I think the key thing to do is map out on paper a good game plan and best case and worst case scenarios for both staying and leaving and living in the USA.

For the USA, the economy is still poor and the job market is not great with high unemployment. The realistic downside for you will be you have no experience in your degree. You mentioned "your job" but I'm not sure how it relates to your degree. But you're going to be competing with many qualified and experienced people in this job market. There are many people with Masters degrees that are unemployed and these people have lots of experience.

Your husband sounds like he has experience but again, the job market is poor. I'm not sure how strong his background is but just make sure you have a good game plan for moving back to the USA and have plenty of savings.

If you are both unemployed and have a child coming, it's going to be essential to get private insurance and a good insurance plan is not cheap in the USA. I own my own company so I self-insure here in the USA and it's not cheap at all. But the quality of care I feel is head and shoulders above Argentina.

I think the USA is one of those places where if you have a solid job or lots of savings or cash flow from investments...it's probably one of the best places in the world to raise a family with affordable quality of life all things considered. But it's one of the worst places to live if you don't have a job or any savings.

Austin is probably one of the best cities to live if you have to live in Texas as far as scenery goes. Also, real estate there isn't too expensive. And no state income taxes in Texas so that's always nice. But if you can't find a job then income taxes are a moot point.

There are problems in both places but I definitely would rather deal with the problems in the USA vs. Argentina. It just became not only a better quality of life issue but also safety issue and I didn't want to raise kids with the increased crime.

I don't regret my decision to move to the USA. We go back to Argentina for only holidays now and much prefer it that way.

 

[ScotGown]

A lot of good comments have been made and I shall only repeat one.. takes time to go over, in the mean time can plan for it, do the paperwork, and pull the trigger when you have the option to do it.

Employment is important. One of the worst thing that can hurt a man self esteem is unemployment (man as in the Male species). Here, he has his family to support him, over in Austin, nadie besides you. And if your husband cannot find a job soon and is not the optimist type, then it could be real tough.

On the flip side, he can prepare for his move now while doing all the visa/ legal paperwork. Since he has an MBA he can figure out what connections and resources here that he can tap on that may be useful in the US. He could be Wealth Manager targeting rich South Americans who wish to "save" abroad, or start a business using "cheap" resources in South America... and so on...

All the best.

 

[earlyretirement]

A lot of good comments have been made and I shall only repeat one.. takes time to go over, in the mean time can plan for it, do the paperwork, and pull the trigger when you have the option to do it.

Employment is important. One of the worst thing that can hurt a man self esteem is unemployment (man as in the Male species). Here, he has his family to support him, over in Austin, nadie besides you. And if your husband cannot find a job soon and is not the optimist type, then it could be real tough.

On the flip side, he can prepare for his move now while doing all the visa/ legal paperwork. Since he has an MBA he can figure out what connections and resources here that he can tap on that may be useful in the US. He could be Wealth Manager targeting rich South Americans who wish to "save" abroad, or start a business using "cheap" resources in South America... and so on...

All the best.

Definitely the best thing you BOTH can do is really tap into your connections and network with people that you know both here and in Argentina.

If you aren't using things like LinkedIn, really tap into it and utilize it and most importantly don't leave any possible networking source unturned. Your greatest probability these days of finding a job is via someone you know or someone that someone you know, etc.

Especially in this kind of job market, you really have to network. Many people really hate networking and reaching out to people but it's so very important these days.

 

[SanDiegoNoche]

This thread is really interesting. So many of you are veterans whose posts I remember reading wayyy back in my lurking days. I wish everyone the best of luck with their decision. I always felt a bit lucky in a sense that my boyfriend, though not from the same country as me, was not Argentine. I left, then he left very recently, five months later. We weren't married and don't have kids, but man, even for me, even as unhappy as I was in the end, it was a heartbreaking decision. Buenos Aires and Argentina will always have a place in my heart. That's probably why every time I think I've looked at this forum for the last time, I come back, just to see how things are going.

I went to a birthday party at a bar back home recently, and someone introduced me to a young woman who was about to move to Buenos Aires. I actually really dread these conversations, because while the last thing I want to do is rain on someone's parade, I am certainly realistic about what's going on in Argentina. She asked me why I left Buenos Aires, and despite her huge smile and bright eyes I very briefly gave her the four reasons I always give, in no particular order: The government, the economy, increasing crime, and not liking porteños as a group very much. (No offense to all of your spouses; I'm sure they're part of that group of exceptions that exists that I just didn't come in contact with enough. Also, nikad, you are so awesome.)

Her face fell a bit as I listed my reasons. Uh oh, I thought, She has an Argentine SO. Sure enough, she was moving down there to be with her fiancé, who incidentally was not porteño. It took every ounce of self control for my eyes not to bug out of my head. (The timing! So horrible!!) She had always found porteños to be warm and friendly, as you do when you meet your Argentine SO in the first few weeks of your first trip to Argentina. They have an apartment in Palermo. (Good, I thought, hopefully he's wealthy so he and his family can take care of you both when 2001 version 2.0 hits.) She didn't really have any job prospects. Her Spanish was okay. She had been reading the news; it was starting to make her nervous. When she asked me what she should take, I told her U.S. $10,000 in cash. "Seriously??" she replied. "Yes," I said. "I'm dead serious."

I had reached the point when I couldn't fake enthusiasm anymore, so I wished her the best. I couldn't help but wonder, what the hell is her fiancé thinking? But of course, there are so many Argentines who think, despite all of the problems, that Argentina is the greatest country in the world. I personally don't think I could move across the world to be with someone who wouldn't be willing, one day, to maybe to the same. I wondered if she'd discussed anything along those lines with her fiancé. I didn't say anything, though. She was a stranger, after all. It didn't feel right.

A note to allcraz-- An American friend married a porteño who is now living with her in Houston. He absolutely loves the city and the people and has no desire to go back to Argentina other than to visit, ever. He actually found a job months before she did, in IT. He was in his late 20s, spoke pretty good English, and has always loved traveling and learning about the world. But I think even he was surprised to love it as much as he did, right off the bat. His porteño family fell in love with it too, when they came to the U.S. the first time for the wedding. Now, he hadn't been dead set on living in Argentina the rest of his life before meeting my friend, but I though you might like to read that positive example anyway. Don't forget, there are plenty of Argentine immigrants in Texas. I run into them all the time. They have a consulate in Houston for a reason.

 

[Chesse]

This thread is really interesting. So many of you are veterans whose posts I remember reading wayyy back in my lurking days. I wish everyone the best of luck with their decision. I always felt a bit lucky in a sense that my boyfriend, though not from the same country as me, was not Argentine. I left, then he left very recently, five months later. We weren't married and don't have kids, but man, even for me, even as unhappy as I was in the end, it was a heartbreaking decision. Buenos Aires and Argentina will always have a place in my heart. That's probably why every time I think I've looked at this forum for the last time, I come back, just to see how things are going.

I went to a birthday party at a bar back home recently, and someone introduced me to a young woman who was about to move to Buenos Aires. I actually really dread these conversations, because while the last thing I want to do is rain on someone's parade, I am certainly realistic about what's going on in Argentina. She asked me why I left Buenos Aires, and despite her huge smile and bright eyes I very briefly gave her the four reasons I always give, in no particular order: The government, the economy, increasing crime, and not liking porteños as a group very much. (No offense to all of your spouses; I'm sure they're part of that group of exceptions that exists that I just didn't come in contact with enough. Also, nikad, you are so awesome.)

Her face fell a bit as I listed my reasons. Uh oh, I thought, She has an Argentine SO. Sure enough, she was moving down there to be with her fiancé, who incidentally was not porteño. It took every ounce of self control for my eyes not to bug out of my head. (The timing! So horrible!!) She had always found porteños to be warm and friendly, as you do when you meet your Argentine SO in the first few weeks of your first trip to Argentina. They have an apartment in Palermo. (Good, I thought, hopefully he's wealthy so he and his family can take care of you both when 2001 version 2.0 hits.) She didn't really have any job prospects. Her Spanish was okay. She had been reading the news; it was starting to make her nervous. When she asked me what she should take, I told her U.S. $10,000 in cash. "Seriously??" she replied. "Yes," I said. "I'm dead serious."

I had reached the point when I couldn't fake enthusiasm anymore, so I wished her the best. I couldn't help but wonder, what the hell is her fiancé thinking? But of course, there are so many Argentines who think, despite all of the problems, that Argentina is the greatest country in the world. I personally don't think I could move across the world to be with someone who wouldn't be willing, one day, to maybe to the same. I wondered if she'd discussed anything along those lines with her fiancé. I didn't say anything, though. She was a stranger, after all. It didn't feel right.

A note to allcraz-- An American friend married a porteño who is now living with her in Houston. He absolutely loves the city and the people and has no desire to go back to Argentina other than to visit, ever. He actually found a job months before she did, in IT. He was in his late 20s, spoke pretty good English, and has always loved traveling and learning about the world. But I think even he was surprised to love it as much as he did, right off the bat. His porteño family fell in love with it too, when they came to the U.S. the first time for the wedding. Now, he hadn't been dead set on living in Argentina the rest of his life before meeting my friend, but I though you might like to read that positive example anyway. Don't forget, there are plenty of Argentine immigrants in Texas. I run into them all the time. They have a consulate in Houston for a reason.

Diego, I liked your post. Particularly where you said "I personally don't think I could move across the world to be with someone who wouldn't be willing, one day, to maybe to the same."

Allcraz, I was thinking almost exactly the same thing when I read your original post, I just didn't know if I should say it - I didn't want to offend anyone and this concept could be a little difficult to not take in an offensive manner if the writer isn't careful. I've had my moments where I didn't mean to offend someone and yet it came to that anyway. Don'tMindMe said it very well though.

Someone else had mentioned that just because you guys move there, it doesn't mean that you can't move back if things get too tough in whatever fashion.

I think Texas in particular, and Austin as the destination, is a great idea. In fact, it is exactly where I would move with my Paraguayan wife if we went to live in the States. Houston is not bad (I lived there for 30+ years!) but it's flat, hot, and humid (and worse than Buenos Aires for mosquitoes) and the culture is a little different (I'm not even sure I know how to explain it - politically correct in a Texas kind of way that Austin isn't, to me). Houston certainly has a lot of cultural things going on, all over, but there's something about Austin that's very special.

But back to him versus you - you came down here, away from your family and stayed with him - I shouldn't think it would be a great stretch for him to do the reverse. It's easy to say that, I know, but I'd think he'd be willing to try, and with the friendliness that mostly emanates from people in Texas, he should adjust on that account pretty quickly.

The job may be something else, but at least Texas has a good economy and I'd bet there would be opportunities. While he's looking and figuring out what he can do, he can improve his English and be ready to hit the ground running.

If you can afford the time and effort to get him a spouse visa, I'd say go for it.

As far as how some of us are feeling about leaving Argentina (BA in particular) - I'm caught in a similar web of uncertainty myself. Although I don't have young children here, my wife and I are responsible for a 16 year old (her sister) directly and her other brothers, sisters and cousins who live here indirectly. They would be lost without her as the anchor to keep them in line and happy.

My sister-in-law will graduate high school next year and we've already begun making the payments on her graduation trip with the school. She'd have to start all over in a new school, leave her friends, have to make new ones (although they would be Paraguayan and her case much easier to make friends with than she has found here) and all the adjustments that make things even more difficult for a teenager.

My wife and I both have friends of many nationalities (including Argentinos) here and we would as well have to start all over.

At the end of last year, it was pretty certain we were going to leave. Now, the Blue Dollar has allowed us to save enough money every month that costs feel more like 2008 prices to us than what locals are feeling. The biggest issues we have are twofold: 1) The government - are things going to get hairy here in terms of tyranny, or is the economy going to collapse quickly, or is it going to be a long drawn-out nightmarish process and 2) crime.

Crime has not affected me personally, but every other member of my family has been robbed, all but one more than once, and a couple at both gunpoint and knife point. However, I'm not sure that Paraguay would be much better in that regard - although we've never been robbed there (well, we haven't lived there either).

But the government concerns me here. People seem very naive at times - "ah, that will never happen again," "you're being paranoid - Argentina goes through these cycles and it's all going to get better, don't worry" etc, etc. Well, how many people get caught by surprise by things they didn't think could happen?

It's a tough, tough decision for many of us as to whether to stay or go. One my wife and I haven't finished making yet.

 

[earlyretirement]

Diego, You're post was excellent! I totally agreed with it.

I just had almost the same situation as you earlier this summer. A friend of a friend found out that I lived in Buenos Aires for many years and had a company there. So she wanted to meet up to pick my brain about Argentina (and it turns out inquire about a potential job).

I met her and her situation was almost exactly the same as yours. She only had been to Buenos Aires twice and she was on vacation and she met her boyfriend.

Like you, I didn't want to burst her bubble or be too negative but I felt I owed it to her or anyone else that is going to uproot their life to move down to Buenos Aires. You know what they say...sometimes "love truly is blind".

First I told this young girl all the positive aspects of the country, which mostly she already knew from visiting. It seemed love was her main motivation for moving there as her boyfriend already had a job and didn't think he could move to the USA permanently.

But then I started giving her all the negatives and her face started to change. She was shocked at many of the things I was explaining to her. She never had stepped foot in a grocery store, she never had to go to the post office to pick up a package, she never dealt with the day to day type stuff that comes from living in Argentina.

Many people are a bit naive and they figure that they had a great time on vacation when they visit and Buenos Aires is a big metropolitan city so things are going to be similar to big metropolitan cities anywhere else in the world.

It sounded like she was definitely going to move no matter what but I recommended she make a good game plan and really focus on a time line of how long she would stay there, what her goals were with her career and her potential relationship.

Most of the expats that I've met down there. Even the ones that have found a job, aren't making any significant amount of money. They make enough to basically live paycheck to paycheck and they aren't saving any significant amount of money for retirement.

At least in the USA, many companies have 401K type programs or other plans. What I've seen for the most part is people get stuck in a cycle there but they get stuck in the "live for today" type attitude that many Porteños have. The problem is I don't understand what many of them will do as they get older and more unemployable.

I think anyone that is going to uproot their lives to move down to Argentina has to really have their eyes open and really think about everything and have really strong discussions with their significant others about everything and the environment down in Argentina.

I tried not to be too negative with this girl but I really wanted to shake her and tell her not to do it. But I couldn't do that. But I could see she had NO clue about the true Argentina. She was stuck thinking about how things were when you were on vacation and coming down and being on vacation is different than living down there and dealing with hassles day in and day out.